[net.religion] Why does SHE believe...

iannucci@sjuvax.UUCP (iannucci) (02/20/85)

In article <329@teklds.UUCP> larryg@teklds.UUCP (Karen Clark) writes:

>
>There is only one reason and ONE REASON ONLY to believe in Jesus.  
>

             She's really right, you know.


>I have met Him and talked to Him and experienced HIM in my life.
>
>Everything else outside of experiential knowledge is falling short
>of a true relationship with God and obviously will not stand up to
>attack.
>
>karen


                 Tell us what he's like, Karen.  I'm not being a 
wise-ass either.  I think that anyone who has been in the presence
of the Almighty should share that experience with others. What does
he look like? What did you talk to him about?

"Well, I didn't actually *meet* him. That's just a figure of speech."
                                       [PREDICTED RESPONSE]

Then what WAS the experience, and how can you defend yourself against
a charge that what you encountered was not, in fact, a transcendent
Otherness, but only a projection of your mind?  I realize that these
are not new arguments, but I'd  be interested to know what you have
to say.

     I will concur with you that to believe in [God,Jesus] for any
other reason than personal experience is reprehensible. But I question
the validity of the experience. 

-- 
David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar)                   St. Joseph's University
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci             Philadelphia

"A witty saying proves nothing. "                                  --Voltaire
=============================================================================

rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (02/22/85)

>>I have met Him and talked to Him and experienced HIM in my life.
>>
>>Everything else outside of experiential knowledge is falling short
>>of a true relationship with God and obviously will not stand up to
>>attack.
>>
>>karen

>                  Tell us what he's like, Karen.  I'm not being a 
> wise-ass either.  I think that anyone who has been in the presence
> of the Almighty should share that experience with others. What does
> he look like? What did you talk to him about?
> 
> "Well, I didn't actually *meet* him. That's just a figure of speech."
>                                        [PREDICTED RESPONSE]
>   [DAVID IANUCCI - the dirty vicar]

Not true.  I don't believe that anyone who makes a statement like that which
Karen has made believes it to be a figure of speech at all.  To such people,
it is a genuine, very real phenomenon experienced within the mind.

> Then what WAS the experience, and how can you defend yourself against
> a charge that what you encountered was not, in fact, a transcendent
> Otherness, but only a projection of your mind?  I realize that these
> are not new arguments, but I'd  be interested to know what you have
> to say.

There's no obligation to defend one's perceptions against "charges".  It's
simply that the less complex explanation that it's a phenomenon INTERNAL
to the mind/brain (esp. given that the mind/brain is known to impose
preconceived patterns on such events) has been shirked in favor of a more
presumptive one.  Instead of a "charge", a question is asked:  "On what
basis?  Why?"

>      I will concur with you that to believe in [God,Jesus] for any
> other reason than personal experience is reprehensible. But I question
> the validity of the experience. 

So do I, as do many others.  And obviously, given our knowledge of such
phenomena, with good reason.  Attempting to ask those who don't question
its validity, those who accept it as "supernatural", to ask them why they do
so, is the crux.
-- 
"Right now it's only a notion, but I'm hoping to turn it into an idea, and if
 I get enough money I can make it into a concept."       Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr

larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) (02/25/85)

Well, I know I am setting myself up for all kinds of attack
but so be it.

No, I will not say that I didn't actually meet God because I did
actually meet God.

As for me to tell you what He is like; remember that I said each
individual must meet God for themselves.  I can tell you about
my experience but for you to "believe" or know God you must have
your own experience.

Of course you are free to deny my experience or explain it however
you desire.  Or if you think that perhaps God is knowable, you
can seek Him yourself.

karen

brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (02/28/85)

In article <362@teklds.UUCP> larryg@teklds.UUCP (Karen Clark) writes:
>No, I will not say that I didn't actually meet God because I did
>actually meet God.

So, what color is His hair?  Does His skin stay soft when He is "up
there" in the vaccuum where Heaven is supposed to be?  Is His voice
rough and raspy or does He talk in soft and cultured tones?

>As for me to tell you what He is like; remember that I said each
>individual must meet God for themselves.  I can tell you about
>my experience but for you to "believe" or know God you must have
>your own experience.

But what was asked was, "what makes *your* experience of your God
more true than *my* experience of Zeus?"  Is it just because
it was *your* experience rather than mine?  Will the next person
to "meet your God" meet the same fellow with the same hair color,
soft skin, and soft cultured tones?

>Of course you are free to deny my experience or explain it however
>you desire.  Or if you think that perhaps God is knowable, you
>can seek Him yourself.  >karen

I would be the last to deny your experience, but why do you feel the
need to deny that other people's experiences are just as valid (and
just as subjective).
-- 
Richard A. Brower		Fortune Systems
{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower

steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (02/28/85)

>
> No, I will not say that I didn't actually meet God because I did
> actually meet God.
> 
	That is hard to argue with!   Most of us have to discuss
god in the abstract and assume that he or she influences things
indirectly.  

	You know, ever since I heard that old joke about the
astronaut who sees god and says "well, for one thing, she's black"
I have wondered and now I can finally find out.  What race and
sex is god?
-- 
scc!steiny
Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382    ihnp4!pesnta   -\
109 Torrey Pine Terr.                        ucbvax!twg     --> scc!steiny
Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060                     fortune!idsvax -/

iannucci@sjuvax.UUCP (iannucci) (03/01/85)

[choke on it, bug ..]

>I assume that you are Catholic. Now a Catholic studying at a Jesuit university
>should know better than to post such an article.
>That article was an embarrasment to the Church.
>     
>Please post a further explanation of your article.     [ANON]

            This was your mistake.  I am not a Catholic and never have been.
Nor do I belong to any other religion.  Don't you think it's possible that an
unbeliever(atheist? maybe) can attend a Catholic university and be perfectly
happy?

>> Then what WAS the experience, and how can you defend yourself against
>> a charge that what you encountered was not, in fact, a transcendent
>> Otherness, but only a projection of your mind?   [IANNUCCI]
 
> There's no obligation to defend one's perceptions against "charges".  It's
> simply that the less complex explanation that it's a phenomenon INTERNAL
> to the mind/brain (esp. given that the mind/brain is known to impose
> preconceived patterns on such events) has been shirked in favor of a more
> presumptive one.  Instead of a "charge", a question is asked:  "On what
> basis?  Why?"    [ROSEN]


     Touche'. But this net hasn't seen the last of me!  :-)

-- 
David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar)                   St. Joseph's University
{allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci             Philadelphia

"A witty saying proves nothing. "                                  --Voltaire
=============================================================================

speaker@gymble.UUCP (Speaker to Animals) (03/06/85)

	Well, I know I am setting myself up for all kinds of attack
	but so be it.

	No, I will not say that I didn't actually meet God because I did
	actually meet God.

	As for me to tell you what He is like; remember that I said each
	individual must meet God for themselves.  I can tell you about
	my experience but for you to "believe" or know God you must have
	your own experience.

	Of course you are free to deny my experience or explain it however
	you desire.  Or if you think that perhaps God is knowable, you
	can seek Him yourself.

Blah blah blah.... are you going to answer the question or not?

steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (03/11/85)

>
> 	As for me to tell you what He is like; remember that I said each
> 	individual must meet God for themselves.  I can tell you about
> 	my experience but for you to "believe" or know God you must have
> 	your own experience.
> 
> 	Of course you are free to deny my experience or explain it however
> 	you desire.  Or if you think that perhaps God is knowable, you
> 	can seek Him yourself.
> 
	I have a standing offer with God.  Many years ago I said,
"ok you impotent wimp, if you have any influence whatsoever in the
universe, prove it to me."   I have heard nothing from It.  

-- 
scc!steiny
Don Steiny - Personetics @ (408) 425-0382    ihnp4!pesnta   -\
109 Torrey Pine Terr.                        ucbvax!twg     --> scc!steiny
Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060                     fortune!idsvax -/

teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (03/14/85)

> 	I have a standing offer with God.  Many years ago I said,
> "ok you impotent wimp, if you have any influence whatsoever in the
> universe, prove it to me."   I have heard nothing from It.  
> 

	Maybe you haven't been listening well enough?

			Eliyahu Teitz.