black@nisysg.DEC (03/12/85)
>I have talked to various christian leaders who think that the >world shoudl become a series of christian states and that non-christians >should be institutionalised. They are there -- try any campus christian >group (except, say, theology centres) and you will find some -- I've >found them on 12 campuses already and hear about them from others. >Laura Creighton Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho (the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find out what these other groups have to say. They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish that he trips over himself. How can you say that such a fine Christian as Jerry (who runs many campus Christian groups) is anti-non-Christian? >Path: decwrl!decvax!mit-athena!martillo >Subject: Re: Christians converting Christians >Posted: Fri Mar 1 05:52:51 1985 >Judaism does not proselytize specifically because it accepts the >existence of many cultures and religions. Everyone not just Jews has a >portion in the world to come. Obviously, if some pagan is praying to an >idol, he is not praying to God, but if that prayer is well-intentioned >and sincere God may chose to listen. Judaism merely expects of non-Jews >that they act decently. How is this intolerant? That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm ignorant, and I need educating. Now I ask, is it an indecent act to hand out copies of the New Testa- ment? Is it an indecent act to be anything other than...No, I'm going to refrain from finishing this sentence. >Just don't mix it with conservative politics! Cain tried that ("Am I >my brother's keeper?"), and you know what happened to him. > >More to the point, Biblical days seem to have been pretty horrible. I'll >stick with the preposterous 20th century, thanks. >-- >Col. G. L. Sicherman >...decvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel >Subject: Re: it was good enough for grandpa >Posted: Sun Mar 3 08:38:19 1985 With all due respect, colonel, military rank does not impress me; credentials and accomplishments do. Yes, the 20th century sure has been preposterous! Since 1914, Babylon has done nothing but get drunk on the blood of American martyrs. We've waged plenty of battles against Communism, but to this day we have not yet declared war on it. (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" than "those who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more anti-Christ than the Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.) I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." In Hoc signo, Don Black Path:...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nisysg!black
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (03/13/85)
In article <1072@decwrl.UUCP> black@nisysg.DEC writes: >>More to the point, Biblical days seem to have been pretty horrible. I'll >>stick with the preposterous 20th century, thanks. >>-- >>Col. G. L. Sicherman >>...decvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel >>Subject: Re: it was good enough for grandpa >>Posted: Sun Mar 3 08:38:19 1985 > With all due respect, colonel, military rank does not impress me; >credentials and accomplishments do. THAT was certainly a cheap shot. Sounds to me like he meant "With all due lack of respect. But the saga continues... > Yes, the 20th century sure has been preposterous! Since 1914, Babylon >has done nothing but get drunk on the blood of American martyrs. We've >waged plenty of battles against Communism, but to this day we have not yet >declared war on it. (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" >than "those who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more >anti-Christ than the Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.) American martyrs?? What's this, a jihad against the Red Menace? > I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, >not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, >but rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just >do not realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to >them and to America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the >light," the Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." What escatological trash. America is not the new Jerusalem, nor the new Israel; it is a country, just as is the Soviet Union. Hopefully, the USA is better than the average; the Soviets are certainly pretty bad. In any case, Jesus' words about performing delicate operations while encumbered by large particles in the eye is quite relevant. While we should not cease to put pressure on the soviets to reform their system, we should not think that our own is above reproach. A problem I have with Falwell and all his ilk is that they ignore the little things of interpersonal dynamics and charity that are so important, while they pontificate about world politics and outward morality. There was an interesting article in the Washington Post today about wife beating. In one case they cited, the offender was a minister in one of these fundamentalist churches. He continually demanded her obedience, and when he beat her, his was forgiven by God, whereas she could not forgive. Now it seems to me that a church which is going to make that kind of demands upon women had better have a strong stance against that kind of abuse, but I have heard nothing from them. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
ask@cbdkc1.UUCP (A.S. Kamlet) (03/14/85)
> >Judaism does not proselytize specifically because it accepts the > >existence of many cultures and religions. Everyone not just Jews has a > >portion in the world to come. Obviously, if some pagan is praying to an > >idol, he is not praying to God, but if that prayer is well-intentioned > >and sincere God may chose to listen. Judaism merely expects of non-Jews > >that they act decently. How is this intolerant? > > That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the > State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew > to obtain citizenship. WRONG! > I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew > a copy of the New Testament. WRONG! (It might get you a few dirty looks from a few people, but if that's your thing, so be it.) > I heard that it is also an offense to tell > a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. WRONG! What you also may have heard is that every so often some Christian Evangelists try to hand out Christian literature to little kids by telling the kids it is Jewish literature. That's understandably offensive, and a few radical Jews have done nasty things. I don't condone nasty stuff by anyone, but it happens. > I heard that in > the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, > you and a dog have a lot in common. ???????? Are you serious?? I have observed that certain net.religioners have taken this attitude about certain groups of Christians but not others, but I forgot, you're slamming Jews today. > (Somebody even told me that it is > an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but > that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm > ignorant, and I need educating. > > Don Black > > Path:...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nisysg!black In every case you've heard wrong. Now you've also heard that you've heard wrong. I'm waiting to hear from many of the, as Rich Rosen has said, Good Christians in this news group who will publicly condemn such vicious postings. To spread such garbage, under the guise of "I've heard that..." and "somebody told me ..." cannot, in good conscience, be condoned. Sometimes we should pause, stop debating the meaning of religion for a while, and start practicing it. -- Art Kamlet AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus {ihnp4 | cbosgd}!cbrma!ask
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (03/14/85)
This is a response to Don Black's message of 12 March 1985, portions of which are quoted below. >>I have talked to various christian leaders who think that the >>world shoudl become a series of christian states and that non-christians >>should be institutionalised. They are there -- try any campus christian >>group (except, say, theology centres) and you will find some -- I've >>found them on 12 campuses already and hear about them from others. >>Laura Creighton > > Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of >the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho >(the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find >out what these other groups have to say. Maranatha for one. Campus Crusade for Christ for another. And I would be surprised to find out that a majority of IVCF members didn't feel this way. All three groups are all over the place. > They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish >that he trips over himself. How can you say that such a fine Christian as >Jerry (who runs many campus Christian groups) is anti-non-Christian? Totally false, as anyone not cursed with selective memory knows. Several years ago, Falwell made a public remark that God does not hear the prayers of a Jew. Remember that? It was all over the press for a while. Since then he has become more careful about revealing his true feelings. As for whether he is pro-Israel, yes and no. He does support continued US aid to Israel, but if you look beneath the surface of fundamentalist Christian support for Israel, you find the real reason: the fundies believe the end of the world (which they greatly desire) can only happen if there is an armed nation called Israel. Don't make this out to be humanitarian; they think Israel will take it on the chin from the USSR in the final days. >>Path: decwrl!decvax!mit-athena!martillo >>Subject: Re: Christians converting Christians >>Posted: Fri Mar 1 05:52:51 1985 > >>Judaism does not proselytize specifically because it accepts the >>existence of many cultures and religions. Everyone not just Jews has a >>portion in the world to come. Obviously, if some pagan is praying to an >>idol, he is not praying to God, but if that prayer is well-intentioned >>and sincere God may chose to listen. Judaism merely expects of non-Jews >>that they act decently. How is this intolerant? > > That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the >State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew >to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew >a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell >a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in >the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, >you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is >an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but >that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm >ignorant, and I need educating. You are extremely ignorant. Everything you said is false. Where did you hear it, from your anti-Semitic fundie friends? Do you people never consider doing some research to verify the facts when a fundie insults another religion? > Now I ask, is it an indecent act to hand out copies of the New Testa- >ment? Is it an indecent act to be anything other than...No, I'm going to >refrain from finishing this sentence. Is it an indecent act to bear false witness against your Jewish neighbors? >>Just don't mix it with conservative politics! Cain tried that ("Am I >>my brother's keeper?"), and you know what happened to him. >> >>More to the point, Biblical days seem to have been pretty horrible. I'll >>stick with the preposterous 20th century, thanks. >>-- >>Col. G. L. Sicherman >>...decvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel > With all due respect, colonel, military rank does not impress me; >credentials and accomplishments do. Did Col. Sicherman in any way attempt to imply that his rank made his opinions superior to yours? If I had attained that rank, you can be sure I'd be proud of it and would use it in my signature, as is allowed by both law and etiquette. > Yes, the 20th century sure has been preposterous! Since 1914, Babylon >has done nothing but get drunk on the blood of American martyrs. We've waged >plenty of battles against Communism, but to this day we have not yet declared >war on it. (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" than "those >who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more anti-Christ than the >Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.) "Good afternoon, ma'am." "Oh, are you here about..." "... completing the sentences? Yes, ma'am." (Monty Python) Seriously, your history appears to be very muddled. The Russian Revolution was in 1917, not 1914. We have fought military actions on the same side as Communists, particularly World War II, which could certainly not have been won without Russian help. It is totally impossible to declare war on a philosophy, and it is pragmatically impossible to declare war on all the Communist countries in the world. It would also be a very short war, lasting perhaps an hour.... > I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, >not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but >rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not >realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to >America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the >Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." Hey, that's pretty specific! Thanks for spelling out the problem in such detail, Don. >In Hoc signo, > >Don Black Somehow, "In this sign, Don Black" does not strike me as a particularly coherent thing to say. If you are comparing your name with the sign that manifested itself to Saul of Tarsus, you should realize that you are being blasphemous.... -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
amra@ihu1n.UUCP (s. aldrich) (03/14/85)
{There is a Fifth Dimension Beyond That Which Is Known To Man.....}
Greetings Mr. Black;
Your most recent "diatribe" is both disturbing and perplexing!
I'd like to raise a few counter-points to some of your comments. I am
"still waiting" for a reply from you concerning your "Fax Paus" article!
But that is another matter entirely.
Below are the "quotations" from YOUR ARTICLE, "Black Replies", along with
MY COMMENTS. I "REALLY" would like to hear/see some comments from you
regarding this follow-up, as well as the previous one mentioned earlier.
Well, for better or worse, here are the quotes/comments.....
==> Don Black's comments
**> Steve's Comments
==> Don Says.......
They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish
that he trips over himself. How can you say that such a fine Christian as
Jerry (who runs many campus Christian groups) is anti-non-Christian?
==> End Of Quote (EOQ)
**> MY COMMENTS:
You must not *LISTEN* to Falwell's "sermons/rallys" very often!.
He sure "rants and raves" about the *SO CALLED* "homosexual/secular/
communist/whatever...." plot to subvert/corrupt/eliminate the "religious
traditions" of this country. People such as the Rev. Falwel and yourself
, based on your postings, just love to "rabble rouse" in the name of G-d.
I doubt if there'd be much "tolerance for" or "acceptance of" dissent under
a government based on the ideals of yourself and/or the {NON}-Moral {NON}-
Majority. Comments Mr. Black???
**>
==> Don Black Says....(in reply to another)
That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the
State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew
to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew
a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell
a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in
the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews,
you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is
an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but
that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm
ignorant, and I need educating.
Now I ask, is it an indecent act to hand out copies of the New Testa-
ment? Is it an indecent act to be anything other than...No, I'm going to
refrain from finishing this sentence.
==> EOQ
**> My Comments:
Don, you complained about Laura not citing sources earlier
then do "EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOURSELF!" Where did you "hear this"?
From Whom did you "hear this"? What are the *FACTS*, as opposed to
YOUR VERSION of reality?
You state: ..."If I heard wrong, then I'm ignorant and I need educating."
Boy do you need "education", as opposed to indoctrination!
You sure seem to "Go Out Of Your Way" to deride the beliefs of the
Jewish religion! What Is YOUR Problem,Don? Could it be possible that
you harbor "negative/hostile" feelings/emotions toward this group?
I am lead to believe that you are a member of some group which has
"polluted your mind" and "corrupted your thoughts", but maybe I'm
wrong. You could have come up with this on your own I suppose. Why
do you "blatantly" ATTACK the "beliefs and practices" of others for
whom you "suppossedly have tolerance?"
**>
==> Don Says......
Yes, the 20th century sure has been preposterous! Since 1914, Babylon
has done nothing but get drunk on the blood of American martyrs. We've waged
plenty of battles against Communism, but to this day we have not yet declared
war on it. (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" than "those
who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more anti-Christ than the
Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.)
I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism,
not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but
rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not
realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to
America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the
Antichrist is in "deep sneakers."
In Hoc signo,
Don Black
==> EOQ
**> My Comments:
Don, What In The Name Of Blue Blazes Are You Trying To Say? What,according
to your "warped" views, is this "PROMISE FROM GOD TO AMERICAN CHRISTIANS?"
What is the "Manifest Destiny",{my term}, of "American" Christians?
Also, are you trying to imply that we should launch a "military attack"
on the USSR? If so, what do you think will be the result of such a policy?
Do you actually believe that if the USSR were to launch an attack, nuclear
or otherwise, that G-d would prevent the USA from losing? Were you dropped
on you head as a child? Did the doctor perform a lobotomy on you at BIRTH?
What type of substances have you been ingesting lately? Something must be
clogging up your mental faculties, if such are present. In short Don, I
think your ideas, and possibly your mind, are a empty as a cubic yard
of space!
Well, I'm waiting, (and will probably continue waiting), to hear your
comments Don!
From The Resident Zen-Baptist:
Steve Aldrich (ihnp4!ihu1n!amra)
"If you don't like the way I'm livin', you just leave this long-haired
country boy alone!"rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (03/14/85)
> Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of > the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho > (the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find > out what these other groups have to say. [BLACK] I think that all Black can say about the Aryan Nations is that they're "a little (!!!) far out" speaks for itself. > They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish > that he trips over himself. How can you say that such a fine Christian as > Jerry (who runs many campus Christian groups) is anti-non-Christian? As I already mentioned, Falwell and the "new Christian right" are incredibly bulging with hypocrisy. The "old Christian right" (e.g., Carl McIntyre) was quite blatant in its hatred for Jews and just about anyone else who looked at them funny, and the "new Christian right" is just engaging in a supposedly sly public relations move when they "clean up their act" and show how much they "love" Jews and Israel. It makes me want to spit. > That ain't exactly _w_h_a_t_ _I_'_v_e_ _h_e_a_r_d. For example, _I_ _h_e_a_r_d_ _t_h_a_t in the > State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew > to obtain citizenship. _I_ _a_l_s_o_ _h_e_a_r_d it is against the law to give a Jew > a copy of the New Testament. _I_ _h_e_a_r_d_ _t_h_a_t it is also an offense to tell > a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. _I_ _h_e_a_r_d_ _t_h_a_t in > the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, > you and a dog have a lot in common. (_S_o_m_e_b_o_d_y_ _e_v_e_n_ _t_o_l_d_ _m_e that it is > an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but > that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) > > If I heard wrong, then I'm ignorant, and I need educating. I'll say. Kinda almost makes you appreciate the fact that Arndt at least quotes sources, as bogus as they might be. > (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" than "those > who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more anti-Christ than the > Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.) No, please, tell us. What are you afraid to tell us, sir? > I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, > not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but > rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not > realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to > America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the > Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." I think the implication of this paragraph is clearly that the things and people that Black lists at the top MAY have been thought to be a problem (at least by him) and perhaps to him they still are problems, but there's some much more important problem. Between your bigoted rantings at the top and the hallucinations and delusions of grandeur, I think we can all rest assured that you either really are an asshole who is as full of shit as humanly possible, or an obnoxious clown who thinks jokes about "Jews as a problem" are funny. (Sound familiar?) I'm sure that the vast majority of Christians out there feel the same way, and if they'd get off their behinds and speak their minds about you rather than just saying "He's just a crackpot asshole! Forget him!", we'd all be a lot better off. I can only hope to THEIR god that they do. Because if they don't and people with your perspective enter the American Christian mainstream and influence the future of American freedom, we're really gonna learn the meaning of antichrist----Don Black is looking at it right in his own mirror. -- "Which three books would *you* have taken?" Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (03/14/85)
Don Black writes: > > That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the >State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew >to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew >a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell >a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in >the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, >you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is >an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but >that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm >ignorant, and I need educating. > > Now I ask, is it an indecent act to hand out copies of the New Testa- >ment? Is it an indecent act to be anything other than...No, I'm going to >refrain from finishing this sentence. I have not heard such nonsense in a very long time. I would not be surprised if the original source of such "information" is an Arab or Communist propaganda organ, which is trying to defame Israel in any way it can. To the actual points raised: a. There are over half a million non-Jewish citizens in Israel, Christian and Moslems. Non-Jews can become naturalized citizens of Israel in a process (it takes 3 to 5 years) very similar to the US naturalization process. (Precise information on naturalization is available from the Israeli consulate near you). Jews are eligible for automatic citizenship via the law of return. This actually takes about one year. b. The New-Testament is available in book stores and libraries in Israel. There are no restrictions on the sale or reading the NT. I used to have a copy of the NT at home while I lived in Israel, *which I did for 30 years.* c. The history curriculum of the secular public schools includes a study of the origins and the history of Christianity. As a part of the literature program, I studied in high school Tabak's fiction novel: "The Man from Nazarath". This novel gives a very favorable view of Jesus the man. Israeli youth do learn about Christianity from historical literature, and somewhat from religious point of view. d. "The study of the talmud by Non-Jews is punishable by death." This is one of the most invidious charges I have heard in a very long time. Didn't you hear that Jews are using the blood of Christian children to bake Passover bread? Your information can only be compared to the blood libel stories propagated by Christians in the past. Incidentally, the only person executed in Israel--since the establishment of the state of Israel--was the Nazi criminal Adolph Eichman. He would have undoubtly loved to hear and spread the type of misinformation that Mr. Black presented to the net. e. Non-Jews in Israel vote in the parliamentary elections, and send representatives to the Israeli parliament. e. Christian missionaries can legally operate in Israel. The only restrictions on missionaries is that they can not bribe, give money or gifts, etc in their proselyting efforts. As I interpret it, missionaries can not give the NT to their objects of proselytizations, as this might be viewed technically as an act of a giving gift. If the NT is given for non-proselyting purpose, say by a library, then the above restriction does not apply. I got my NT from a Christian organization in Israel. I cannot recall whether I got it free or paid for it. I think that I clearly demonstrated that Black is completely misinformed. If the rest of Mr. Black's information is as credible as his information on Jews and Israel, I strongly recommend that he recheck the credibility of his sources. -- Yosi Hoshen, Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, (312)-979-7321, Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
jcp@osiris.UUCP (Jody Patilla) (03/14/85)
> That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the > State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew > to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew > a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell > a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in > the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, > you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is > an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but > that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm > ignorant, and I need educating. [BLACK] > You "heard" all these things ? From whom ? What source ? I think that we need a little injection of fact here. I know, for example, that there are Christian missionaries in Israel. They are not terribly appreciated, but they aren't run out of town on a rail either. I don't know about the laws of the state of Israel, but everywhere else in the world, it is no crime among Jews to discuss Talmud with Gentiles (I have a couple of volumes of Talmudic commentary myself - it's very interesting. And the Talmud is in the library, along with the "Guide for the Perplexed" by Maimonides) It would be very helpful if someone with direct knowledge of the statutes in Israel to contribute to this discussion. -- jcpatilla "'Get stuffed !', the Harlequin replied ..."
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/14/85)
The things which happen to non-Jews in Israel is precisely why I think that a state religion is a bad idea. The Israelis have a different problem, though, they are at war. It is necessary to maintain your ideology if you are going to fight an effective war. Do you think that the US is already in such a state of war and doesn't realise it? If so, then what do you think that subversives like me should do? Laura Creighton utzoo!laura ps -- teh behaviour of Jews in Israel is rather different than the behaviour of Jews in North America. Is this because the Jews in North America did not have this opportunity? I don't think so, since the attitude of Jews who have not chosen to return to Israel seems contrary to this. Perhaps it is simply that power corrupts -- in that case do you *still* want a Christian State of America? Remember it is going to be run by the sort of unenlightened Christians that you meet all the time...
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/14/85)
oops. The problems that you run into when news doesn't arrive in order... *Now* Black's real reply gets here...after the replies to the replies. Most of the things that you said happens in Israel don't. Non Jews can become citizens. You can buy Bibles in the bookstores. You can talk about Christianity all you want. It is difficult to rise in political rank, though, unless you are Jewish, and the same bias appears to extend to universities and other bureacracies. Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) (03/15/85)
[] Part of Mr. Black's article calls for reply. > I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, > not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but > rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not > realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to > America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the > Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." Do Americans have a special, unique role to play in God's plan for the world? Certainly. So do all other nations. Our divinely appointed task may be a big one, because we are blessed with lots of resources and an unusually privileged history. (Not that every individual American has been unusually favored - but the nation as a whole has been.) But this does not imply that all our national goals and interests are specially ratified by God. Even if, in some conflict, we act in a good cause, this does not mean that everything we may do for that cause must be right. I agree that communism is evil, but this does not give us the right to commit all the violence in our power against people who have the misfortune to be communists. The danger of spiritual pride is that if we identify our adversaries as "Anti-Christ" then we are confusing ourselves with a kind of secular, collective Messiah. Mr. Black raises some good questions: what is God's promise to America and to American Christians? And what does He expect of us in return? Answers must pass the test of these counter-questions: How do you know? And have you successfully refrained from projecting your own desires onto the image of God? Consider the phrase "manifest destiny" that was loved by some American speakers in the Nineteenth Century. They too quickly went from "We want to push other people around" to "God wants us to push other people around." Consider that what may seem like a Crusade from our point of view may seem like plain old imperialism from another. Peace, Chris -- Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 870-5853 From vax135!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nisysg!black Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site petsd.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: petsd!vax135!houxm!mhuxt!mhuxr!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nisysg!black From: black@nisysg.DEC Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Black replies. Message-ID: <1072@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Tue, 12-Mar-85 12:13:23 EST Date-Received: Thu, 14-Mar-85 08:34:24 EST Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 82 >I have talked to various christian leaders who think that the >world shoudl become a series of christian states and that non-christians >should be institutionalised. They are there -- try any campus christian >group (except, say, theology centres) and you will find some -- I've >found them on 12 campuses already and hear about them from others. >Laura Creighton Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho (the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find out what these other groups have to say. They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish that he trips over himself. How can you say that such a fine Christian as Jerry (who runs many campus Christian groups) is anti-non-Christian? >Path: decwrl!decvax!mit-athena!martillo >Subject: Re: Christians converting Christians >Posted: Fri Mar 1 05:52:51 1985 >Judaism does not proselytize specifically because it accepts the >existence of many cultures and religions. Everyone not just Jews has a >portion in the world to come. Obviously, if some pagan is praying to an >idol, he is not praying to God, but if that prayer is well-intentioned >and sincere God may chose to listen. Judaism merely expects of non-Jews >that they act decently. How is this intolerant? That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm ignorant, and I need educating. Now I ask, is it an indecent act to hand out copies of the New Testa- ment? Is it an indecent act to be anything other than...No, I'm going to refrain from finishing this sentence. >Just don't mix it with conservative politics! Cain tried that ("Am I >my brother's keeper?"), and you know what happened to him. > >More to the point, Biblical days seem to have been pretty horrible. I'll >stick with the preposterous 20th century, thanks. >-- >Col. G. L. Sicherman >...decvax!sunybcs!gloria!colonel >Subject: Re: it was good enough for grandpa >Posted: Sun Mar 3 08:38:19 1985 With all due respect, colonel, military rank does not impress me; credentials and accomplishments do. Yes, the 20th century sure has been preposterous! Since 1914, Babylon has done nothing but get drunk on the blood of American martyrs. We've waged plenty of battles against Communism, but to this day we have not yet declared war on it. (And what could be a better definition of "Antichrist" than "those who are against, i.e. anti-, Christ? And who are more anti-Christ than the Communists, except for maybe...well, never mind.) I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, but rather it is a deeper, less obvious problem. American Christians just do not realize who they are, what America is, and what God's promise to them and to America comprises. When American Christians begin to "see the light," the Antichrist is in "deep sneakers." In Hoc signo, Don Black Path:...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nisysg!black
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (03/15/85)
In article <306@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >This is a response to Don Black's message of 12 March 1985, portions of >which are quoted below. >>In Hoc signo, >> >>Don Black >Somehow, "In this sign, Don Black" does not strike me as a particularly >coherent thing to say. If you are comparing your name with the sign that >manifested itself to Saul of Tarsus, you should realize that you are being >blasphemous.... Actually, it was Constantine, not Saul. (I agree with the rest of the article, though.) Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
wkp@lanl.ARPA (03/15/85)
[Don Black continues...] > That ain't exactly what I've heard. For example, I heard that in the > State of Israel (the epitome of Judaism) it is not possible for a non-Jew > to obtain citizenship. I also heard it is against the law to give a Jew > a copy of the New Testament. I heard that it is also an offense to tell > a Jew under 18 years of age anything about Christianity. I heard that in > the State of Israel if you don't belong to a certain nationality of Jews, > you and a dog have a lot in common. (Somebody even told me that it is > an offense punishable by death to allow a non-Jew to read the Talmud, but > that sounds a little far-fetched to be true.) If I heard wrong, then I'm > ignorant, and I need educating. You heard wrong. Yes, you need educating, but first you've got to stop visiting those book stores in Torrance for your information about Jews. Does it really bother you that the deity you worship was an Israeli citizen--and a Jew--and not Ernst Zundel? > > They tell me that Falwell's preaching is so pro-Israel and pro-Jewish > that he trips over himself. Who keeps telling you these things? Do you have a tape-recording of "The Elders of Zion" near your bed? > > I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism, > not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians, It's nice to know that the Jews are not (yet) the greatest problem in Don Black's America. P.S. Is it only non-Christians (as Rosen pointed out) that are mortified by this man's ravings? -- bill peter
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (03/15/85)
I thought that anti-Jewish ranting went out with my Daddy's
generation. First, it ain't true. Second, it ain't nice.
Third, how are we ever going to successfully preach the
Kingdom to Jewish folks, if they get (GET HELL!! MAINTAIN !!)
the distinct impression that we hate them and would rather
color them gone.
Mind you, Mr Black, I have been accused of being an anti-semite
and have never used such vile rhetoric as you have displayed
recently.
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}gtaylor@lasspvax.UUCP (Greg Taylor) (03/15/85)
In article <> cjh@petsd.UUCP (Chris Henrich) writes: > Do Americans have a special, unique role to >play in God's plan for the world? One book sure to offend this viewpoint (although I think it will by its gentle and corrective tone-always the best way to dispute-perhaps not satisfy the virulent non/antiChristian) that you might wish to take a look at is "the Search for Christian America" by George Marsden, Mark Noll, and Nathan Hatch (not sure about him....I think he's the other author). The book is written from within the Christian subculture by a trio of historians who have some rather strong disagreements with the whole "America as chosen nation" idea. They are all social historians whose scholarly work covers the colonial-present period. Basically, they argue that the notion of America as a chosen nation with a golden past to which we can or should return holds no water whatsoever. That's the blunt business of it. The further historical argument is that in many cases the American Evangelical Fundementalists of the late Nineteenth century were actively engaged in promoting the Secular Humanism that the modern Falwellian so despises. Beyond that, the whole current argument of American "chosen-ness" damages the ways in which (the authors argue) that Christian Americans of "any" serious conviction should pursue justice and fairness for their cause. When you're done with that book, pick up a copy of George Marsden's "Fundamentalism and American Culture (Oxford University Press)". It will go a long way toward pointing out where all the stuff comes from in the first place. The historical period covered is approx. 1830-1940. It is a real eye-opener of a book if you grew up in the tradition (I spent my adolescence in it), and pretty involving even if you aren't. I read Marsden first, but don't hold yourself to *my* way. Both books are short on the vitriol and long on the history (actually, Marsden is the more thoroughgoing of the two, since TSFCA is specifically intended to unconvince a rather general audience).
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (03/16/85)
Oops! Sorry. Thanks for the correction, Charley. It was indeed Constantine. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
gtaylor@lasspvax.UUCP (Greg Taylor) (03/16/85)
In article <> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: > >Totally false, as anyone not cursed with selective memory knows. Several >years ago, Falwell made a public remark that God does not hear the prayers >of a Jew. Remember that? It was all over the press for a while. Since >then he has become more careful about revealing his true feelings. > WRONG. The person you're thinking of was a candidate for the presidency of the Southern Baptist Convention, I believe. You've got some valid arguments here. You'd do best if you didn't make it look as if you're inclined to produce a great enemy who is the sum total of anything you object to. If it makes you feel any better, Falwell *did* get drawn into the argument. However, it's unlikely that he'd have said any such thing, as his political ties with Israel are based on some strongly held eschatological beliefs.
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/17/85)
> Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of >the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho >(the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find >out what these other groups have to say. I am a little worried about telling you this. If the Aryan Nations are only ``a little far out'', according to you, then I don't think that you know how to investigate what people say they are doing -- but the Campus Crusade for Christ is full of such preachers, as are some Jews for Jesus (I hear they are divided about this, and a lot of other things) and Maranatha are another group. The latter seem to be better organised than the otehr two -- at least there seems to be less politicking. But this may be a local phenomenon. I have found some of these at the University of Toronto, University of Guelph, University of Western Ontario, University of Waterloo and Carlton University in Ottawa, at Berkeley, at UC Davis and at UC in San Diego, the University of British Columbia, MIT and I know I have forgotten a few others. I am told that they are at Duke and at UNC in Chapel Hill, but I haven't gone looking for them there. It is interesting that you say that Falwell is pro-Jewish. We don't get that much of Falwell here, but I distinctly recall that he once (4 years ago??) made a public remark that God didn't listen to the prayers of a Jew. This made the papers here. Has he changed his mind? Supporting the Jews in their struggles against the Russian Communist backed Arabs may say nothing about pro-Jewish sentiment -- just anti-communist ones. Now, if I were a fundamentalist and believed that an armed Israel signified the beginning of the end of the world, I would be doing my best to see Israel unarmed. Then again, every time I have heard Falwell I have concluded that he is hopefully looking forward to the end of the world, so maybe that makes a strange sort of sense. But I haven't watched Falwell enough to know whether he is consistent in wanting the end of the world -- perhaps I caught him in a bad month. Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) (03/17/85)
I heartily second Greg Taylor's recommendation of "The Search for Christian America" by Noll, Hatch and Marsden. (See his article in net.religion). The book definitely offers a balanced view of The Christian influence in early America which is romanticized and used as a rallying point by the Religious New Right. >When you're done with that book, pick up a copy of George Marsden's >"Fundamentalism and American Culture (Oxford University Press)". It >will go a long way toward pointing out where all the stuff comes from >in the first place. The historical period covered is approx. 1830-1940. >It is a real eye-opener of a book if you grew up in the tradition (I >spent my adolescence in it), and pretty involving even if you aren't. Another good one is "The Bible in America: Essays in Cultural History" (1982, Oxford Univ. Press) edited by Hatch and Noll. Noll, Hatch and Marsden are also three of the editors who worked on the "Eerdmans' Handbook to Christianity in America" (1983). It's worth having in any Christian home. I contributes much the stuff our "secularized" American History books leave out. -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/18/85)
I will have to go to the library, but I think that I can find that reference about Falwell there in the back issues of the newspapers. This, of course, in no way means that other people didn't say teh same thing... Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
urban@spp2.UUCP (Mike Urban) (03/19/85)
In article <306@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: > >Totally false, as anyone not cursed with selective memory knows. Several >years ago, Falwell made a public remark that God does not hear the prayers >of a Jew. Remember that? It was all over the press for a while. Since >then he has become more careful about revealing his true feelings. > Uh, I think that you're attributing a statement made by another fundamentalist minister (who had some kind of ties to Falwell) to Falwell himself. If someone can pinpoint the incident better, I'd appreciate it. My recollection is that, because of Falwell's personal and doctrinal ties to the other minister, Falwell found himself having to account for this position, and this has led to his more recent pro-Israel statements. By the way, it's kind of interesting having Mr. Black around, but surely some of the Christians in this newsgroup have to feel as if suddenly a backwoods relative came to a chic party they were throwing and talked about "the dumb niggers and chinks" in the big city (note that I'm not attributing that quotation to Mr. Black). Perhaps he's so embarassing that it's only the other guests at the party that will deal with him. :-( Mike BTW, the "dumb nigger" incident happened, after a fashion, in my family many years ago. And it *was* painful. -- Mike Urban {ucbvax|decvax}!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!urban "You're in a maze of twisty UUCP connections, all alike"
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (03/19/85)
You are correct that Falwell did not say what I claimed he said, although he did refuse to repudiate it. My apologies for the error. However, I did not "make it up"; Laura also gathered the same impression through the media, you'll notice. It was a sincere misunderstanding. However, Falwell has made many anti-Semitic remarks, as is documented in a biography my love Pam has. I will try to share some with you this weekend. I would tonight, but I've a plane to catch in the morning. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (03/20/85)
In article <306@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >Totally false, as anyone not cursed with selective memory knows. Several >years ago, Falwell made a public remark that God does not hear the prayers >of a Jew. Remember that? It was all over the press for a while. Since >then he has become more careful about revealing his true feelings. Don's assessment of Falwell as a "fine Christian" convinces me of his total lack of judgement. Five minutes of his TV show would convert anyone to Sufism. His hypocrisy is a matter of public record. Baptist friends of mine who visited his church came back disgusted. Jerry Falwell is a prime example of the evil and hypocrisy that can be concealed under a veneer of Bible-quoting and pious sermons. >As for whether he is pro-Israel, yes and no. He does support continued US >aid to Israel, but if you look beneath the surface of fundamentalist >Christian support for Israel, you find the real reason: the fundies believe >the end of the world (which they greatly desire) can only happen if there is >an armed nation called Israel. Don't make this out to be humanitarian; they >think Israel will take it on the chin from the USSR in the final days. All true but the last sentence, based on what various evangelicals who were trying to convert me have told me. The current theory is that Israel will become involved in a war with the USSR, and will WIN. But Tim is right; this is almost certainly the cause of their love-hate relationship with Israel. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe