black@nisysg.DEC (03/19/85)
I want to thank you all who educated me in a sane, reasonable manner about the laws of the State of Israel. I do appreciate the information, and I will recheck my original sources. I'm sure you won't mind if I quote a few of them for comment. A couple of quick comments.... To Rich Rosen: Rich, not to be personal, but GROW UP! Using obscenities in the context of this net is totally juvenile. I spent seven years in the service of this nation, so my ears are used to it. But there are ladies present. Besides, Rich, you've shown your true colors as possibly an intolerant nerd. You are (inadvertently or not) adding fuel to my comments about Judaism. How can you say you are tolerant of other religions when you so violently condemn me and mine? I do believe I made a statement when I first submitted to this net that I don't believe in religious persecution. I stand by that comment. I also firmly believe in the section of the First Amendment that mandates the free expression of religious beliefs. My religion states certain beliefs, and those beliefs are still covered by the First Amendment. To Laura: Thank you for you information on campus groups. I am sure UNH may have something similar. But I will look into the subject. I sure would appreciate some mailing addresses, if you have them. To Marchionni: You're right, I could tolerate a true pluralistic society. I could even live in one dominated by the Catholic Church, I think. I don't know if I could accept reconciliation--the Church would really have to work at it. (By the way, I volunteer as a Committeeman with the local Boy Scout troop, which is sponsored by the local parish. I make sure that I don't get into any religious discussions. Sometimes it's better not to.) Both my children have attended Catholic schools in the Boston area for at least four years. I am very disappointed in the level of religious teachings in the Catholic schools today. It's nothing compared to what it used to be in the 50's and 60's. I just object to the kind of crap that I am starting to see here on the net--the absolute hypocracy that tolerates no adverse comments on Judaism, but yet I have Jewish acquaintences that think nothing of referring to Holy Communion as "Swallow the leader," for example. I expected to receive something like this: >Your recent message on net.religion got a lot of customers angry. >Since you're identifiable as a Dec employee, it might be wise >to be cautious in your postings, since they reflect on all >of us. >Fri 15-Mar-1985 22:03 Maynard Time. I won't embarrass the sender by identifying him. I do believe it's a rather blatant attempt at censorship. I thought we were all professional enough not to take things personally, to not allow our discussions here to affect or professional and business activities. I guess we're not. Let me add the disclaimer that the beliefs and the opinions I express here are those of this author, and not necessarily the policy of D.E.C. When I first submitted to this net, I asked if there were any Identity Christians in the group. Apparently there are not. Let me explain a little of our precepts then. Identity Christianity simply believes that Christians are the true Israelites, God's true Chosen People, and that America is the true Promised Land. We believe that the covenants God made with the Israelites are still in full force and effect, and that we Christians still have a responsibility to keep God's Law as he laid out in scripture. We also believe that scripture tells us exactly what to expect from the Antichrist, how to identify the Antichrist, and how to conduct ourselves accordingly. I will in future submissions submit scriptural references for your reading pleasure. I believe most of the net is open-minded. I don't ask any of you to accept any of my belief. To each his own. In Hoc signo (Vinces!), Don Black
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (03/20/85)
> Rich, not to be personal, but GROW UP! Using obscenities in > the context of this net is totally juvenile. I spent seven years > in the service of this nation, so my ears are used to it. But there > are ladies present. Excuse me. Obscenities are perhaps the only words suitable to describe the content of your articles. > Besides, Rich, you've shown your true colors as possibly an > intolerant nerd. You are (inadvertently or not) adding fuel to > my comments about Judaism. How can you say you are tolerant of > other religions when you so violently condemn me and mine? I guess condemning your glorification of a Nazi and your claims that Jews are a problem (albeit minor compared to the real problem you shuffled past us) shows my intolerance. As does my condemnation of any religious movement that would sek to impose its morality onto other people. I'm sorry. To be truly tolerant, I should allow you and your kind (the "sort of far out" Aryan Nations types) to tell me what should be done with my life. My apologies. I guess this also shows that the Christians who kept silent as churchmice throughout all of this were actually showing their "tolerance" for Black's beliefs. As I suspected. > I do believe I made a statement when I first submitted to this > net that I don't believe in religious persecution. I stand by that > comment. That's funny. You didn't "stand by" that comment when you described the problems to be resolved by returning (???) to your Christian way, when you spouted hatred for homosexuals, Jews, and others. More accurately, you stepped on that comment, which you obviously made only for show. Just saying it doesn't make it so. Your other words contradict this "comment". > To Marchionni: > You're right, I could tolerate a true pluralistic society. Yeah, right. Make up your mind... > I just object to the kind of crap that I am starting to see > here on the net--the absolute hypocracy that tolerates no adverse > comments on Judaism, but yet I have Jewish acquaintences that think > nothing of referring to Holy Communion as "Swallow the leader," > for example. I guess the Christian Right no longer feels the need to placate Jews by telling them how much they are loved and accepted in their new order. (Which is a lie to begin with.) Time for true colors to show. > Identity Christianity simply believes that Christians are the > true Israelites, God's true Chosen People, and that America is the > true Promised Land. We believe that the covenants God made with > the Israelites are still in full force and effect, and that we > Christians still have a responsibility to keep God's Law as he > laid out in scripture. We also believe that scripture tells us > exactly what to expect from the Antichrist, how to identify > the Antichrist, and how to conduct ourselves accordingly. Why not tell us what place the "old Israelites" have in your scheme? Funny, if you believe that the covenant god had with the Jews has been "renegotiated" with you and yours, why aren't the old Jewish laws binding on you? Tell me, is yours among the new Christian movements that claims that Mein Kampf is the last real book of the bible? -- Meet the new wave, same as the old wave... Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) (03/21/85)
Let's identify this Identity Christianity stuff for what it is. (As a
descendant of one of the founders of the KKK I guess I get to post this.)
From Newsweek; March 4 1985 --
"The undergirding of Butler's [Richard G. Butler, pastor of the
Aryan Nations] teaching is Identity theology, a movement founded in
1946 by Ku Klux Klan organizer Wesley Swift. Its doctrines argue that
Jesus Christ was an Aryan, not a Jew, that the lost tribes of Israel
were the Anglo-Saxon and other Aryan races, that the United States is
therefore the Promised Land, and that Jews should be destroyed as the
children of Satan. 'Identity recognizes that now we're Israel. We
don't have to play pansy with Jews over here,' explains Robb. Swift,
who died in 1970, prophesied in the early '50s that soon 'there will
not be a Jew in the United States -- and by that I mean a Jew that will
be able to walk or talk.'
"Identity attracts a strange mix of apostles and many
variations on its theme. William Potter Gale, a former colonel who
served under Gen. Douglas MacArthur in the Phillipines, preaches from
his Ministry of Christ Church in Mariposa, Calif. In one taped sermon
he said, 'Damn right I'm teaching violence! God said you're gonna do
it that way. It's about time somebody is telling you to get violent,
whitey. You better start making dossiers, names, addresses, phone
numbers, car license numbers on every damn Jew rabbi in this land.'
Yet Gale deplores Butler's 'Nazi approach.' On the other hand Keith
Gilbert found Butler not Nazi enough. Gilbert, who served five years
in San Quentin for a plot to explode 1,400 pounds of dynamite diring a
speech by Martin Luther King Jr. to B'nai B'rith, started his Restored
Church of Jesus Christ in Post Falls, Idaho. He preaches that Hitler
was the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah, that 'Mein Kampf' belongs
in the Biblical Canon and that May 1 of this year -- the 40th
anniversary of the announcement of Hitler's death -- will begin 'the
terrible day of destruction.'
---------------------------
I do not imply that Mr. Black believes all of the above. I would like
to know just how many of these poople Mr. Black does "keep faith" with.
--
Byron C. Howes
...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bchbarry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (03/21/85)
From dec-nisysg!black (Don Black): > When I first submitted to this net, I asked if there were any > Identity Christians in the group. Apparently there are not. Let > me explain a little of our precepts then. > > Identity Christianity simply believes that Christians are the > true Israelites, God's true Chosen People, and that America is the > true Promised Land. I think this explains a lot about Mr. Black's postings. He must be quite unhappy about Jews having the chutzpah to claim that *they're* the people God made his covenant with. Boy, I hope he never finds out about the British Israelites! "Imitation is the sincerest Kenn Barry form of flattery" NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry