[net.religion] How much is that free will in the window?

merrill@raja.DEC (Rick) (03/21/85)

Me: How then do you tell the difference between your will and the various 
    influences impressed upon you?

Thee: One's "will" *IS* the various influences impressed upon one, is it not?

Your statement comes from
an attempt to feel that "everything is under control" called Determinism.
Determinism is itself an outgrowth of Jeudeo-Christian belief that God has
ordered the universe (and life) into a coherent and possibly understandable
whole - i.e. causality per se with God as the prime cause followed by a
succession of cause and effects.

A will is NOT deterministic, however, and is the sole exception to the ordered
universe concept.

From a scientific point of view the will is NOT the sum of various influences
simply because the brain, the personality, the psyche, the ego, the WILL
is/are so complex that randomness of any kind entering the system can come to
dominate the result.  Catastrophy Theory 
(an outgrowth of Topology Theory) epitomizes this type of
phenomemon.  For weather forcasting this could mean that "the beat of a 
butterfly's wings in Brazil can affect the weather in New England".

NOW will you answer my question, using any frame of reference you like:
How Do You Tell The Difference Between Your Will And That Of Someone Else?


Someone else: (but it sounds like Thee!)
>>`Free will' is one of my favorite subjects, but most people
>>don't take me seriously.  Yes, I believe that there is no free will.
Me:
> We have willed not to take you seriously, therefore we have a will that
> is demonstrably free from yours!   :-)

Posted:	Thu 21-Mar-1985 08:45 (Maynard_Time)
To:	NET$PHILOSOPHY, NET$RELIGION

rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (03/22/85)

> Me: How then do you tell the difference between your will and the various 
>     influences impressed upon you?  [MERRILL]
> 
> Thee: One's "will" *IS* the various influences impressed upon one, is it not?
> 
> Your statement comes from
> an attempt to feel that "everything is under control" called Determinism.
> Determinism is itself an outgrowth of Jeudeo-Christian belief that God has
> ordered the universe (and life) into a coherent and possibly understandable
> whole - i.e. causality per se with God as the prime cause followed by a
> succession of cause and effects.  [MERRILL]

I don't know *where* that notion comes from.  I thought the notion of
determinism was independent of the existence or non-existence of god, that it
was based on understanding of ordered relationships between events (cause
and effect), and, vis a vis the human mind and free will, there is no evidence
to indicate that something "different" occurs with regard to human action and
thought.  If people do see real evidence of a difference, I'd like to hear that.

> From a scientific point of view the will is NOT the sum of various influences
> simply because the brain, the personality, the psyche, the ego, the WILL
> is/are so complex that randomness of any kind entering the system can come to
> dominate the result.  Catastrophy Theory 
> (an outgrowth of Topology Theory) epitomizes this type of
> phenomemon.  For weather forcasting this could mean that "the beat of a 
> butterfly's wings in Brazil can affect the weather in New England".

Agreed.  It all ties together, though perhaps not instantaneously and not
directly.

> NOW will you answer my question, using any frame of reference you like:
> How Do You Tell The Difference Between Your Will And That Of Someone Else?

This very question assumes some sort of independence of will as in some
ability to exercise independent voluntary control that exists separately in
individuals.  I'd be foolish to say that my actions are not dependent on the
actions of the people and things around me, since those things influence my
thoughts, my perceptions, my analysis, my reactions, my intuitions, and my
actions.  Those who advocate a notion of free will would claim that there is
something more, that allows a person, based on the same input in exactly the
same environment with the same current "brain state", to have some sort of
choice independent of those variables.  I don't see any reason to believe that.
-- 
"It's a lot like life..."			 Rich Rosen  ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr