lew@ihlpa.UUCP (Lew Mammel, Jr.) (03/06/85)
The "cheeses" ditty reminds me of the beginning of LIFE OF BRIAN where some people are listening at the edge of the crowd to The Sermon on the Mount: Jesus: ...blessed are the peacemakers 1st man: What did he say? 2nd man: blessed are the cheesemakers. 1st man: Cheesemakers? Why cheesemakers? 3rd man: It's not meant literally! It refers to any manufacturer of dairy products. Incidentally, I didn't think LIFE OF BRIAN was sacrilegious at all. It wasn't Jesus being mocked, only peoples' response to him. Back to cheese, my mother always thought that the refrain "All we like sheep, [have gone astray]" sounded like "Oh, we like cheese!" Maybe we're on to something here. Lew Mammel, Jr. ihnp4!ihlpa!lew
ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (03/11/85)
> Incidentally, I didn't think LIFE OF BRIAN was sacrilegious at all. > It wasn't Jesus being mocked, only peoples' response to him. Not to be picky or over zealous, but in the movie, Brian (the character representing Jesus) was portrayed as a normal guy who was simply (and literally) picked up by the masses without any reason. He fell on the ledge where he "preached his first sermon" and his miracles and actions were those of a normal, everyday person. He tried to avoid the large groups of people and he continually told them that he was nothing special, but they wouldn't listen. The movie gave me the definite impression that they were making the statement that Christ was probably just a normal guy whom the masses, through ignorance and misconception vaulted into the spotlight. Christ, however, claimed to be a Teacher from God and while many dispute it, He claimed to be God. He certainly never avoided teaching the masses and the Bible tries to make it very clear that the miracles atributed to Him were not ignorant people's dumb mistakes (i.e. the man in the whole who hadn't spoken for 40 some odd years being healed by Brian stepping on his foot and making him scream.) The Bible teaches that Christ was NOT just a popular teacher whose reputation was based rumors and stories, the Bible claims that He had authority from God, that He came from God, and that He was God. While I must admit that many of the scenes in the movie were excellent in their critique of people and their dealings with religion, the underlying statement about Christ is definitely not in line with Biblical teaching. Forgive me if I'm being a kill joy. Rick (not Rich) p.s. All I said was that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah :-)
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (03/14/85)
How could someone who saw the movie "Life of Brian" claim that Brian represented Christ? In case you forgot, Christ is a character in the movie. A separate character, portrayed as very wise and benevolent. Sheesh! Life of Brian is not about Christ, or about Christianity. It is about religions and followers, and the absurdities often perpetrated by religions and followers. Nothing else. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (03/15/85)
> How could someone who saw the movie "Life of Brian" claim that Brian > represented Christ? In case you forgot, Christ is a character in the movie. > A separate character, portrayed as very wise and benevolent. Sheesh! > > Life of Brian is not about Christ, or about Christianity. It is about > religions and followers, and the absurdities often perpetrated by religions > and followers. Nothing else. [TIM MARONEY] I mentioned in a previous article that the original working idea for the film "Life of Brian" was the story of Jesus and the advent of Christianity, hence the original working title "Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory". The notion of substituting ANOTHER Jewish kid of the same time period who was mistaken for the messiah was done to *placate* the potential distributors and backers of the film (who probably wouldn't have touched "Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory" with a ten foot cross). Though the basis of the original idea was the advent of Christianity, the points the movie made became more generalized. P.S. to Tim: read my last two articles to Laura with regard to definition of religion. If the same poll Laura took asked the question: "Is a tomato a vegetable?", would the answer of the majority of people have any bearing on whether or not it *is* one, given the accepted definition of a vegetable (and of a fruit)? -- "Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end." Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
rap@oliven.UUCP (Robert A. Pease) (03/15/85)
. >Christ, however, claimed to be a Teacher from God and while many dispute >it, He claimed to be God. He certainly never avoided teaching the >masses and the Bible tries to make it very clear that the miracles >atributed to Him were not ignorant people's dumb mistakes (i.e. the man >in the whole who hadn't spoken for 40 some odd years being healed by >Brian stepping on his foot and making him scream.) The Bible teaches >that Christ was NOT just a popular teacher whose reputation was based >rumors and stories, the Bible claims that He had authority from God, >that He came from God, and that He was God. > [ From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) ] I'm sorry, what I remember is not that Jesus claimed to be God, but that he was the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God" and he claimed that "I and the Father are one". Now I don't interpet the last as meaning that they were identical, but united. After all, the part about a man and his wife leaving their parents and joining together "as one flesh" was a figure of speech too. -- Robert A. Pease {hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!oliven!rap
arnold@ucsfcgl.UUCP (Ken Arnold%CGL) (03/16/85)
In article <1959@sdcc6.UUCP> ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) writes: >Not to be picky or over zealous, but in the movie, Brian (the character >representing Jesus) was portrayed as a normal guy who was simply (and >literally) picked up by the masses without any reason. What movie did you see? In the version of "Life of Brian" I saw, the character representing Jesus was not Brian, but someone preaching on a mountain. He looked the the Jesus we see in paintings, said the things that Jesus is quoted as saying in the Bible, and otherwise seemed just like Jesus as one would expect to see him. I thought he was portrayed quite accurately, even though it was a small part. Brain, on the other hand, was picked up by some very silly people, who twisted what he said. He was also saved from certain death by the coincidental appearance of a flying saucer. By the way, it is a fact that at the time which Jesus appeared, there were many other people claiming or claimed to be the messiah. The people of that time were looking for a deliverer, and saw many. The movie was reasonable accurate about that. That Jesus is the Son of God (if that is what you believe) has nothing to do with this. -- Ken Arnold
ee161ant@sdcc13.UUCP (ee161ant) (03/17/85)
> > >Christ, however, claimed to be a Teacher from God and while many dispute > >it, He claimed to be God. > I'm sorry, what I remember is not that Jesus claimed to be God, but > that he was the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God" and he claimed that > "I and the Father are one". Now I don't interpet the last as meaning > that they were identical, but united. After all, the part about a man > and his wife leaving their parents and joining together "as one flesh" > was a figure of speech too. > -- > > Robert A. Pease I was hoping that my comments on the movie might provoke a statement of this type and I'm glad for the chance to talk about a topic that I feel is very worth while and one that I feel can actually be resolved. One problem in trying to show that Christ claimed to be God is that the only available source for support is the Bible. For some people this would pose an insoluable problem because they do not accept that the Bible accurately records what Christ really said. But, if you are willing to accept that the statements attributed to Christ and the opinions voiced by the apostles are for the most part 'authentic' then there is an excellent basis for beginning this discussion. While I am sure there are many more, there are at least five good points that show fairly clearly (with as little interpreting as possible) that Christ claimed to be God. The first point that can be made concerns the titles claimed by Christ. I will try to be as clear as I can when using fairly obscure Biblical references and as often as possible I will refer to the wording presented in the original texts (i.e. the Hebrew or the Greek). In Isaiah 41:4, 44:6 and 48:12 God claims to be the first and the last. God specifically claims that there is no one else who is like Him in this respect (44:6). However, in the book of Revelation, Christ twice claims to be the first and the last, the alpha and the omega. (Rev 1:17, 22:13) In John 8:58 Christ uses the title "I Am" (in Hebrew YHWH or YaHWeh). In Exodus 3:14, God said that I am, or YHWH was His name forever. And the Jews, both when Christ made this statement and the one you referred to in John 10:30 picked up stones to stone Him. When Christ asked why, they replied, "because you, being a man make yourself out *to be* God." At least in the minds of the Jews it was very clear who Christ was claiming to be. A second point concerns another claim that Christ made. In John 10:28 Christ claims that He gives eternal life to His 'sheep' and that no one can snatch them out of His hand. But in Isaiah 45:17 God says that He alone provides eternal life and that He alone can guard His people. This claim of Christ's is important because if Christ isn't God then how can He give eternal life and how can He protect His sheep. If Christ is just another man or even a prophet, why would He claim to give eternal life, or why would Christ say later, in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." Another title or priveledge in this case that Christ usurped concerned Isaiah 45:23. God says, "that to me every knee will bow and every tongue swear alegiance." But in Philipians 2:10 Paul says, "that at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Paul also calls Christ his savior, along with John, Titus and most of the other apostles (2 Timothy 1:10, 1 John 4:14, 2 Peter 2:11, Titus 2:13) whereas in the Old Testament, God claims to be the only savior and redeemer (Isaiah 43:11, 49:26) Perhaps one of the clearest statements that can be made in asserting Christ's claim to deity can be seen through a comparison of Christ's statements and actions. In Mathew 4:10 Christ says to Satan, "you shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." But in Mathew 9:38 and again in Mathew 28:9 people fall down at Christ's feet and worship Him and He doesn't say anything. There are numerous examples of Angels telling people who tried to worship them to get up and in Acts 10:25 a man named Cornelius tried to worship Peter and Peter told him to stop. But Christ accepted the worship and commended His disciples for doing so. The last clear example is taken from a Book entitled "Kingdom of the Cults", by Walter Martin. If you or anyone for that matter is interested in a really intense, scholarly and brief analysis of the deity of Jesus Christ, it is in a section on how to support the doctirne of Christ's divinity on pages 73-87. Anyhow, the author, Dr. Martin, uses the passage where Thomas confesses his belief in Christ. "John 20:28 o Theos mou, literally the God of me or my God siginifies Jehovahistic identity and since it is in possession of the definite article (a grammatical point that many people have argued is essential for it to be truly referring to 'God') it must therefore mean "the only true God." ... Now let us reflect as sober individuals. If Thomas called the risen Christ Jehovah (o Kurios mou kai o Theos mou transation: my Lord and my God) and Christ did not deny it but confirmed it by saying (verse 29) "Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed", there is no juggling of the text in context that can offset the basic thought, namely that Jesus Christ is Jehovah God." While this by no means exhausts the arguments that can be made in support of Christ's claims to divinity, I would hope that these have shown that Christ specifically and implicitly claimed to be not only the Son of God, but to be God. This is a crucial point in discussing the Bible because so many people want a Jesus who was simply a good teacher or a prophet or whatever fits into there nice little mold but Christ tried to make it farily clear. If this hasn't convinced you or anyone out there (you mean I haven't solved the entire question of Christianity??) please write back and we can hopefully hammer this issue out and actually get to some level of resolution. Rick (not Rich) ix415@sdcc6.UUCP "For in Him (Christ) all the fulness of deity dwells in bodily form" Collossians 2:9
larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) (03/23/85)
Jesus said that if you say Him you had seen the Father. He also claimed to be I AM in John. karen
mroddy@enmasse.UUCP (Mark Roddy) (03/27/85)
> > Jesus said that if you say Him you had seen the Father. > > He also claimed to be I AM in John. > > karen Hey sometimes I claim I AM IN JOHN too! -- Mark Roddy Net working, Just reading the news. (harvard!talcott!panda!enmasse!mroddy)