stratton@brl-tgr.ARPA (Sue Stratton ) (03/21/85)
At this point, I'm not exactly sure whose message I'm directly responding to, but I think it's Tim's. So here goes............ > This is a response to Don Black's message of 12 March 1985, portions of > which are quoted below. > > >>I have talked to various christian leaders who think that the > >>world shoudl become a series of christian states and that non-christians > >>should be institutionalised. They are there -- try any campus christian > >>group (except, say, theology centres) and you will find some -- I've > >>found them on 12 campuses already and hear about them from others. > >>Laura Creighton > > > > Laura, would you mind naming a few of these campuses and the names of > >the groups that are preaching this? I know about a group out in Idaho > >(the Aryan Nations) that are a little far out, but I'd be curious to find > >out what these other groups have to say. > > Maranatha for one. Campus Crusade for Christ for another. And I would be > surprised to find out that a majority of IVCF members didn't feel this way. > All three groups are all over the place. > SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a relative newcomer to the net, and I must admit that I never expected to find myself actually posting. [This is because I am in the uncomfortable position of one who considers herself a part of the "evangelical community" for theological reasons, but who is nevertheless un- able to support most of the political, "scientific," and other positions that many evangelicals see as the logical Christian conclusions.] HOWEVER, I just had to speak up here............ I was a member of an IVCF (InterVarsity Christian Fellowship) chapter through- out my undergraduate career at Loyola College in Baltimore (yes, a Jesuit school--and the presence of a group, many of whose leaders (on the national level, that is) and luminaries are 5-point Calvinists, on a Catholic campus made for some interesting times. But I digress...). IV has its roots in the student missionary movement in the British universities of the 19th century; it is still, in essence, a "student missionary movement." AND, WHILE IVCF MAY HAVE ITS SHARE OF PROBLEMS (AND IT DOES!), THE ONE YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR POSTING IS *NOT* ONE OF THEM. The stated purpose of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship is to help students in 1) Evangelism- sharing Christianity with others in the hope of leading them to personal faith in Jesus Christ; 2) Discipleship- helping those who consider themselves Christians to learn more about the Bible and to follow Christ's example in their day-to-day lives; and 3) Missions- sending Christians all over the world to continue doing (1) and (2). There is a five point basis of faith, which reads something like one of the standard creeds ("we believe in the necessity and efficacy of the redeeming work of Christ on the cross, in His bodily resurrection, in the work of the Holy Spirit today"...etc.). Now, you may disagree on all of those points, but please notice that none of them has anything to do with a mission to work to create "Christian states" in which non-believers will be "institu- tionalized." Nor did I find that to be the viewpoint of your average (for that matter, of ANY) IVCF-er, and I've attended local, regional, and national conferences (an URBANA missions conference, to be specific). Furthermore, I spent a summer overseas through IV's S(tudent) T(raining) i(n) M(ission) program; the summer was preceeded by four months of workshops which EMPHASIZED (to the point where I could recite it in my sleep!) the importance of respecting the culture, government, and religious training of the people we'd meet overseas. A missionary, I was told, is simply a person with a message for another per- son. NOT a spokesperson for the US or any other state (even a hypothetical "Christian" one) or culture. OF COURSE all Christians, including IVCF-ers, would love to see the whole world become Christian--but not through any of the horrible means you men- tion. And we wouldn't be surprised if some of us ended up being the ones incarcerated or "institutionalized" by repressive authorities! Now, I can't speak for Campus Crusade, and I understand that C.C. and IV differ somewhat in their approaches to different things--but there was a C.C.-er on my STIM team who seemed to fit right in. Maranatha I don't know at all. SORRY this was so long (for those of you who "stuck it out"), but I really had to correct the misrepresentation of a worthwhile (if human and there- fore imperfect) organization. Thanks, Karen Wilson <kwilson@amsaa.ARPA>
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (03/27/85)
Well, you certainly are in a position to know more about IVCF than I do. That means I am surprised. Remember, I didn't misrepresent you, I just said I would be surprised to find out that most IVCF members weren't theocratically inclined. Nonetheless, my apologies for the wrong guess. You may wonder why I said this about IVCF. The reason is that from reading IVCF pamphlets on evangelism I gathered the distinct impression that the members were none too careful about distinguishing between evangelism and coercion. For instance, one that I read (I believe the title was "Personal Evangelism", though that may be another) recommended becoming friends with a person and then making the camaraderie's continuation contingent on conversion to Christianity. Not nice. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"