[net.religion] Don Black get sized for shoes...

rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dr. Emmanuel Wu) (03/28/85)

>      Why is it allright to be anti-Christian, anti-God, anti-Moslem, but
> anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli is anathema?  Is this not hypocritical?

Let's look closely at the differences between Black's definitions of
"anti-Christian" (i.e., against that which he believes) and "anit-Jewish".
Is he attacking the Jewish belief system, making comments on his personal
views regarding it vis a vis his own belief system?  Or is he telling
derogatory lies about Jewish people, based on false testimony and
his own warped convolution of Biblical text?  He feels it's all right
to tell lies about a group of people, but not to point out the truth about
the actions of his own people (labelling it "anti-Christ").  The motivation
for telling such lies?  Why doesn't he tell us.  Are Jews, homosexuals,
atheists, Marxists doing things that harm your life?  Specifically, what
are these things?

These are not objective factual statements Black makes about the world.  These
are the ravings of an insecure wimp who cannot face the reality of his own
problems and pins the blame for them on anyone he can find:  Jews, Marxists,
atheists, homosexuals, anyone who's different enough from him to allow him to
disassociate himself from them and to allow his offering of hatred toward
them.  He has problems, thus other people are the cause.  Perhaps the real
causes of his problems are just circumstance. Or perhaps his own incompetence
that he cannot face up to, forcing him to pin blame for those problems on
other people.  Whatever the actual cause might be is irrelevant.  He has found
a scapegoat, and a supporting religious movement to back up his lame
contentions.  So off he goes making those contentions, making derogatory
statements about many groups of people, claiming that it is HE who has been
maligned.  The big lie technique works.  Unless you pound on the liars hard
enough to demand evidence resulting in the final revelation that there is none.

This is how the bigoted mind operates.  If you think I'm "jumping to
conclusions" and have no basis for calling Black a bigot, you haven't read
what he's offered.  I suggest you do so.  Even the great Gary Samuelson,
the champion of the promotion of Christianity, has come out and proudly
admitted that he believes that what Black has to say is simply not worth
commenting on.  If silence implies concurrence, such a statement as Gary has
made explicitly and directly concurs.

>      The biggest problem amongst Christians today is that we do tend to ignore
> people such as yourself, Rich.  That is, those who are bent on eliminating 
> any sort of God from everyday life.  We don't take you seriously enough.

What would you do to take me more seriously?  Answer my questions directly
and forthrightly?  Engage in a serious dialogue about freedom in society?
Or what?

> And when we do we get labled A**h***s (usually f***ing a**h***s), s***heads,
> bigots, racists, Nazis, etc.  And the worst ephitets are thrown when we 
> get near the truth.

What truth is that?  "The worst epithets are thrown" BECAUSE we are near the
truth.  And the truth, in your case, merits the use of epithets.

>      Why is it that invectives aimed at Christianity are tolerated,
> but legitimate questions about Judaism become "vile rhetoric?"
>      No, you're right--it ain't nice to rant untruths about Jews.  But 
> I have a lot of questions about what the truth is.  So do a lot of people.
> How am I to learn if I don't ask?

Can anyone cite one single QUESTION that Black has *asked*?  He has
wrongfully stated that the Jews are descended from Esau (followed by a
derogatory remark about "selling his birthright for a bowl of beans"),
he has claimed that Jews, along with other groups, are a "problem" though
not the "real" problem, he has told falsehoods (based on "I heard"
testimony ...) about Jews and Israel (for what purpose if not to defame
an entire group of people?).  With all these statements and claims which
blatantly serve only to malign and not to enlighten, what the hell is he
talking about when he claims that he is asking questions?   It's scary
that someone actually believed the crap Black stated above about asking
questions enough to repeat it in a followup.

It's clear that the vast majority of people in this country are ill-informed
and ill-equipped to comprehend the tactics of fascism.  As witnessed by the
gullibility of many right here regarding Black.  The man is not asking
questions; the very fact that he already has a firm opinion based on lies he
chooses to accept is indicative of his mindset.  Invectives targeted at your
version of "Christianity", or against any version that manifests itself in
such heinous notions of racist ("mildly so", as Black would say) racial
superiority, "divine right"/"manifest destiny" horsemanure that is based
only on ego-/ethnocentric wishful thinking, and impositional morality, are
quite reasonable, quite necessary.  Malicious lies used as invective against
groups disguised as "I'm ignorant---they were questions, please answer
them" are little more than scatological.

>>> I guess maybe an even greater problem in America is not with Communism,
>>> not with atheists, not with the Jews, or the schools, or the politicians,

>>It's nice to know that the Jews are not (yet) the greatest problem in
>>Don Black's America.

> There you go again, putting words in my mouth.  Did I say the Jews were a 
> problem?

Most certainly.  When one says: "Maybe a GREATER problem is not with this
list of things... but with...", one is directly implying that that list of
things consists of "lesser" problems.  If the sentence didn't directly
imply it, the rest of your postings did so most admirably.

>>Well, I guess Rich was right.  EVEN NON-FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE IN AGREEMENT
>>WITH BLACK!  While Black is spouting his hatred of Jews, liberals, and
>>non-missionary-positioners on this net, Machionni has the visciousness
>>to discuss theology with this guy!  And denigrating his critics!!!!
>>Even worse!  Saying things like "Don is correct," or "I have no
>>qualms with Black," or "Black's point is well taken."
>>Oh great Ubizmo!  Is this what people like Marchionni were doing while
>>the European Jews were being put in death camps?  (Don't answer this,
>>I know the answer already.)  [?????]

>      What death camps??  

The statement speaks for itself.  Is this a "question" he is asking,
(no, honestly, I just didn't know there were any, it's got nothing to
do with the hate literature I read and believe...) or a bold malicious
assertion that he believes there weren't any?  Based on ...

>>> From his postings I think Don is willing to work within the compromise
>>> of a pluralistic society.

>>Stick it, Marchionni.  [bill peter]

>      I can't add any more, Bill.  Somehow you say it all yourself.

He sure did, and very well, too.  Even Marchionni sort of halfheartedly
came out and called Black for what he is since the original posting.
Are *you* willing to work within the compromise of a pluralistic society?
You forgot to state whether you were or not.

> I agree about state religions, Laura.  This is why our founding fathers
> decreed in the Costitution prohibited the recognizing of any one religion.
> They did acknowlege that the free exercise thereof should not be prohibited,
> thus recognizing the legitimacy of ALL religions.

The part of the Constitution you had previously left out of the list of
principles you hold to and upon which you claimed the nation was founded.
(Black had explicitly named "the Constitution of 1787" so as to exclude
the Bill of Rights.)

> Yeah, I'll still take a Christian state over a Judaic state any day
> of the week.  A matter of personal preference, I guess.  Ideally, we'd
> have a state governed precisely by the Constitution, as I advocate.  But
> many people are afraid of the Constitution, since they'd have to stop
> being corrupt.

The question regarded a Christian state versus a non-religious state.  To
Black, that is by inference a "Judaic" state, something he states derision
for.  Is anything "against" or contrary to Christianity (as you see it)
the fault of the Jews and something to be eliminated?
-- 
"When you believe in things that you don't understand, you'll suffer.
 Superstition ain't the way."		Rich Rosen  ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr