lisa@phs.UUCP (Jeff Gillette) (03/25/85)
[]
It seems that every six months or so we play a little game on
net.religion called "bait the Christians." Someone who claims to be a
Christian makes some outrageous statement, or some hideous act of
violence has associations with Christian individuals or institutions.
The call goes out: "Every Christian had better repudiate this person or
that institution, or the whole world will take your silence as agreement
with the condemned." I'ld like to take this opportunity to stick my neck
into the game long enough to make one comment: count me out!
Surely Don Black must have horns and a tail. Does he beat his wife and
children? I'll bet he hides a Nazi uniform under his bed! Perhaps some
of his colleagues can testify to his mean spirit and insensitivity.
Unfortunately, *I* cannot verify any of these things. In fact, I am
going to assume (until I feel I have solid evidence to the contrary) that
Mr. Black is a nice guy who has serious questions, and will listen to
sincere answers. By the way, this is the same assumption I have made
about Rich Rosen, and I can't say that I have found greater reason to
credit Rosen's sincerity than Black's.
Does Don Black question the existence of Hitler's holocaust? Which of
you doubt that when Black has fairly examined the evidence he will
realize that six million Jews - fellow men and women created by God -
perished in the cruelest act of violence in the recorded history of the
world. Wait until he has proven himself to be intransigent and lacking
in the smallest amount of human compassion before pinning the swastika on
his coat. Does Black want to associate himself with the Identity
movement? I am not aware of any aspect of Identity theology with which I
concur, but I am not about to condemn all who quote from this theology on
the basis of an article in Time and Newsweek. If Mr. Black wishes to
associate himself with the Aryan Nations, the KKK, or any similarly
reprehensible group which breeds on intolerance and fear, let him be
roundly denounced, BUT *I* will hold my condemnation until Black
*himself* admits the link.
But, back to my original point. If Don Black (or Rich Rosen, or anyone
else) ultimately shows himself/herself to be thoroughly narrowminded,
intolerant and bigoted, don't hold your breath waiting for me to make any
obligatory denunciations. And don't waste your breath saying that Jeff
Gillette supports intolerance and prejudice because he hasn't denied it
loudly enough. I'm not interested in playing that game. Truth is God's
Truth, and Truth will win out with my comment or without it. This type
of argument from silence is not golden, it's yellow. And I have no
interest in cowering before it.
Jeffrey William Gillette duke!phs!lisa
The Divinity School
Duke Universityrlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dr. Emmanuel Wu) (03/26/85)
> It seems that every six months or so we play a little game on > net.religion called "bait the Christians." Someone who claims to be a > Christian makes some outrageous statement, or some hideous act of > violence has associations with Christian individuals or institutions. > The call goes out: "Every Christian had better repudiate this person or > that institution, or the whole world will take your silence as agreement > with the condemned." I'ld like to take this opportunity to stick my neck > into the game long enough to make one comment: count me out! > > Surely Don Black must have horns and a tail. Does he beat his wife and > children? I'll bet he hides a Nazi uniform under his bed! Perhaps some > of his colleagues can testify to his mean spirit and insensitivity. > Unfortunately, *I* cannot verify any of these things. In fact, I am > going to assume (until I feel I have solid evidence to the contrary) that > Mr. Black is a nice guy who has serious questions, and will listen to > sincere answers. [GILLETTE] EITHER Black is a confirmed Nazi (based on his own pronouncements about Jews' place in his new Christian society and his repudiation of personal freedoms) or he is just an asshole making outrageous statements. The notion that he might be some guy with "legitimate" questions (Remember, he's not ASKING "Did the holocause occur?", he's claiming it didn't.) would be repugnant to any thinking person. > By the way, this is the same assumption I have made > about Rich Rosen, and I can't say that I have found greater reason to > credit Rosen's sincerity than Black's. Given what you offer above about what Black might be, I'm deeply touched by this statement. > Does Don Black question the existence of Hitler's holocaust? Which of > you doubt that when Black has fairly examined the evidence he will > realize that six million Jews - fellow men and women created by God - > perished in the cruelest act of violence in the recorded history of the > world. Wait until he has proven himself to be intransigent and lacking > in the smallest amount of human compassion before pinning the swastika on > his coat. Which of us? I will. Any examination of his source material (from known neo-fascist rightist publishing arms) makes it clear that 1) he has his "evidence", and 2) like those who provided him with that "evidence", he is not seeking proof, but setting up a no-win situation in which there cannot be proof because he wants people to believe his foregone conclusion. He has proven himself very plainly. (unless, of course, he's just a rabblerousing asshole) > Does Black want to associate himself with the Identity > movement? I am not aware of any aspect of Identity theology with which I > concur, but I am not about to condemn all who quote from this theology on > the basis of an article in Time and Newsweek. If Mr. Black wishes to > associate himself with the Aryan Nations, the KKK, or any similarly > reprehensible group which breeds on intolerance and fear, let him be > roundly denounced, BUT *I* will hold my condemnation until Black > *himself* admits the link. His link to Ernst Zundel, his reference to the Aryan Nations as "slightly far out" (from his perspective), both serve as admission of more than a "link". > But, back to my original point. If Don Black (or Rich Rosen, or anyone > else) ultimately shows himself/herself to be thoroughly narrowminded, > intolerant and bigoted, don't hold your breath waiting for me to make any > obligatory denunciations. And don't waste your breath saying that Jeff > Gillette supports intolerance and prejudice because he hasn't denied it > loudly enough. I'm not interested in playing that game. Truth is God's > Truth, and Truth will win out with my comment or without it. This type > of argument from silence is not golden, it's yellow. And I have no > interest in cowering before it. I'd say you do. As do, apparently the vast majority of Christians on this net. It's funny that only Wingate and Brown, the ones who have actually been tarred with the label "anti-Semite" at times, have chosen to perhaps "cleanse" themselves by denouncing Black, but even then only mildly so. The evidence as presented seems rather clear, but you'd rather wait till his kind firebombs someone's house before accepting what it is he's putting forth. Don't get me wrong. I say let him speak. Let his own words show him for the bigoted fool that he is. It will happen soon enough. -- "Which three books would *you* have taken?" Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (03/27/85)
[Jeff Gillette] > But, back to my original point. If Don Black (or Rich Rosen, or anyone > else) ultimately shows himself/herself to be thoroughly narrowminded, > intolerant and bigoted, don't hold your breath waiting for me to make any > obligatory denunciations. And don't waste your breath saying that Jeff > Gillette supports intolerance and prejudice because he hasn't denied it > loudly enough. I'm not interested in playing that game. Truth is God's > Truth, and Truth will win out with my comment or without it. This type > of argument from silence is not golden, it's yellow. And I have no > interest in cowering before it. > [Chuck Hedrick] >If this group were a deliberative body, the situation would be very >different. If someone suggested that my local church should adopt Identity >Christianity, then I would be obligated to do what I could to stop it. In >that context, it might well be that "silence gives consent". But we are not >a deliberative body. We are not making any decisions, and there is no >obligation for people to speak up when they see something that they disagree >with. Indeed this group would quickly become impractical if we heard from >everyone that considered a posting to be wrong or even immoral. I was saddened to read these two articles, because I have a great deal of respect for both Jeff and Chuck. We should of course look for "that of God in every person", including Don Black. And perhaps it is not neccessary for everyone to respond to every single outrageous posting in net.religion. But we have a moral obligation to oppose the dangerous bigotry that Don Black's postings reveal. Six million Jews, and millions of others, paid with their lives for the indifference of their Christian neighbors during the Twenties and Thirties when Nazism was on the rise. Had more good, upstanding men and women spoken out when it counted, that tragedy might not have happened. And contrary to the attitude that I detect in Chuck's and Jeff's postings, the obligation to speak out begins long before we ourselves must face the threat personally. Pastor Martin Niemoeller wrote that when they came for the Jews, he did nothing, because it wasn't his problem. And when they came for the Communists, he did nothing, because he didn't want to get involved. But when the Nazis came for him, he looked around for help, and there was no one left to help him. We would do well to heed his warning. As for the reality of the holocaust: Don, my father was there at the liberation of Dachau. He has told me of the appalling things he saw there with his own eyes. If you say the holocaust did not happen, you are calling him a liar. -- "Men never do evil so cheerfully and so completely as when they do so from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (uucp) bill%utastro.UTEXAS@ut-sally.ARPA (ARPANET)
ellen@reed.UUCP (Ellen) (03/29/85)
> Surely Don Black must have horns and a tail. Does he beat his wife and > children? I'll bet he hides a Nazi uniform under his bed! Perhaps some > of his colleagues can testify to his mean spirit and insensitivity. > Unfortunately, *I* cannot verify any of these things. In fact, I am > going to assume (until I feel I have solid evidence to the contrary) that > Mr. Black is a nice guy who has serious questions, and will listen to > sincere answers. > Does Don Black question the existence of Hitler's holocaust? Which of > you doubt that when Black has fairly examined the evidence he will > realize that six million Jews - fellow men and women created by God - > perished in the cruelest act of violence in the recorded history of the > world. Wait until he has proven himself to be intransigent and lacking > in the smallest amount of human compassion before pinning the swastika on > his coat. Does Black want to associate himself with the Identity > movement? I am not aware of any aspect of Identity theology with which I > concur, but I am not about to condemn all who quote from this theology on > the basis of an article in Time and Newsweek. If Mr. Black wishes to > associate himself with the Aryan Nations, the KKK, or any similarly > reprehensible group which breeds on intolerance and fear, let him be > roundly denounced, BUT *I* will hold my condemnation until Black > *himself* admits the link. > > But, back to my original point. If Don Black (or Rich Rosen, or anyone > else) ultimately shows himself/herself to be thoroughly narrowminded, > intolerant and bigoted, don't hold your breath waiting for me to make any > obligatory denunciations. > > Jeffrey William Gillette duke!phs!lisa *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** I have to say first off that I am torn between admiring Jeffrey's idealism and being outraged at what appears to me to be cockeyed optimism. While it is nice to know that people of childlike faith still exist in the world, it hurts like hell to see them waste their faith on a jerk like Black. To quote someone, "It looks like a duck, acts like a duck, waddles like a duck. If it quacks, shoot it." If Jeffrey isn't convinced by now that Don ultimately *isn't* "thoroughly narrowminded, ignorant, and bigoted," I suspect there is very little anyone can say, including Black himself, to change his mind. I think that in the case of Don Black, Truth has already won out in the minds of most people (or I hope it has): the man is a raving loonie, and his opinions are dangerous to boot. In answer to at least one of Jeffrey's rhetorical questions, I doubt that Don will ever *realize* that six million Jews perished in Nazi death camps. I doubt that Don will give up his belief in Christ the man as a blue-eyed blond. I do think, judging from the sheer volume of the man's erroneous beliefs, that he's got a whole separate philosophical/historical reality built up in his head, and I doubt anything we argue will really change his fundamental suppositions. Don Black's litany of hate is fairly easy for me to refute and go on peacefully, since it is so obvious. Jeffrey's misdirected idealism frightens me, since if he can believe that Black is fundamentally a reasonable and rational man who has been terribly misinformed, he can believe the same of Hitler, Genghis Khan, Pieter Botha, Joseph McCarthy, Kramer and Sprengler, and the peddlers of hate in every era. And too many people believed that Hitler was fundamentally reasonable for too long, the United States and Britain especially. Hate is very difficult to stop with faith and reason. Hate destroys. I don't care to leave Don Black's ravings unanswered and wait for God to decide. Don can do too much damage in the meantime. If Jeffrey is any example, he already has. Send me mail; I love mail. Ellen
amra@ihu1n.UUCP (s. aldrich) (03/30/85)
> *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE *** > > I have to say first off that I am torn between admiring > Jeffrey's idealism and being outraged at what appears to me to > be cockeyed optimism. While it is nice to know that people of > childlike faith still exist in the world, it hurts like hell to > see them waste their faith on a jerk like Black. > > To quote someone, "It looks like a duck, acts like a duck, > waddles like a duck. If it quacks, shoot it." If Jeffrey isn't > convinced by now that Don ultimately *isn't* "thoroughly > narrowminded, ignorant, and bigoted," I suspect there is very > little anyone can say, including Black himself, to change his > mind. I think that in the case of Don Black, Truth has already > won out in the minds of most people (or I hope it has): the man > is a raving loonie, and his opinions are dangerous to boot. > > In answer to at least one of Jeffrey's rhetorical questions, I > doubt that Don will ever *realize* that six million Jews > perished in Nazi death camps. I doubt that Don will give up his > belief in Christ the man as a blue-eyed blond. I do think, > judging from the sheer volume of the man's erroneous beliefs, > that he's got a whole separate philosophical/historical reality > built up in his head, and I doubt anything we argue will really > change his fundamental suppositions. > > Don Black's litany of hate is fairly easy for me to refute and > go on peacefully, since it is so obvious. Jeffrey's misdirected > idealism frightens me, since if he can believe that Black is > fundamentally a reasonable and rational man who has been > terribly misinformed, he can believe the same of Hitler, Genghis > Khan, Pieter Botha, Joseph McCarthy, Kramer and Sprengler, and > the peddlers of hate in every era. And too many people believed > that Hitler was fundamentally reasonable for too long, the > United States and Britain especially. Hate is very difficult to > stop with faith and reason. Hate destroys. I don't care to > leave Don Black's ravings unanswered and wait for God to decide. > Don can do too much damage in the meantime. If Jeffrey is any > example, he already has. > > Send me mail; I love mail. > > Ellen {..."We're Gonna Rock & Roll Ya' Now!" } I CONCUR WITH ELLEN, it is high time you "sheep" woke up! People such as Black MUST BE denounced at EVERY INSTANCE to insure that they do NOT establish a "strangle-hold" upon society! Ellen correctly states that the "lack of opposition" to Hitler was one of his BIGGEST ASSETS in being ELECTED to OFFICE! IF ENOUGH PEOPLE had Countered his BULLSHIT from the Beginning, there is a very good probability that he would not have risen to power by "DEMOCRATIC" means. Never Forget that people such as Yourself helped elect (and voted for) him in the democracy of Germany. I find the lack of Christian concern to be thoroughly reprehensible! If it weren't for people such as Rich Rosen, Ellen, Tim Maroney, Myself, and others who have the "decency" to RESIST this lunatic fringe BEFORE it becomes the STATUS QUO! Wake Up And Smell The Coffee before someone sticks your face in the grounds! No wonder many people don't accept the validity of your "stated beliefs"! It's really just a farce! I am open to comments from the Other Side of this dis-agreemeent, if you'd care to discuss matters at hand. Peace & Best Wishes From The Resident Zen-Baptist: Steve Aldrich (ihnp4!ihu1n!amra) "Preacher-Man Talkin' On TV, Puttin' Down The Rock & Roll. Wants Me To Send A Donation 'Cause He's Worried About My Soul." P.S. Is This An Example of the Moral-Majorities Morals???