david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (03/27/85)
Reply to Dave Trisell, concerning Christianity and homosexuality: Our replies have crossed, the one about religious sincerity, the other about homosexuality. I am replying very briefly to the latter because I do not wish to offend you, but this will have to be my last posting to the Net for awhile, so you and others should not expect an answer again. As I said, I lived in or near a number of major cities all over the country... New Haven, Dallas, New York, Austin, Boston-Cambridge, San Jose, Washington DC, over a period of almost twenty years as an adult (born 1948 in a small farming town in Illinois). Most of this time I was either a manual laborer, or a student or researcher at various universities. Otherwise, I am divorced, married for a few years while I was a graduate student. I am Catholic, with Quaker connections. So much for background. The homosexuals I have met during this time have almost without exception been pretty unhappy, with very poor physical and psychological health, this often according to their own account. My impression is that many are obsessed with their own feelings. Heterosexuality requires us to take time to understand and love someone who is much different than us; when there is an alienation of affection between sexes there is has also been denigration and repression of women. I would not want to return to pre-Christian Greece culture; even early Christian communities were less repressive of women than the surrounding cultures. (As far as that goes, for similar reason, I believe that it is a mistake for Catholic priests to be required to be celibate; it makes for alienation and repression.) You say that some emporors were homosexual, and so were many Romans and Greeks at the time of Jesus and Paul. Well, the emporers were lots of other things too, which I wouldn't recommend. My point is that homosexuality was not accepted, or even common, among the Jews of that time. It was scandalous. Absolutely condemned by religious tradition. If you would like to find out what the orthodox Jewish tradition is concerning homosexuality, a tradition which is derived from that of the Pharisees of the time of Jesus, then you should ask any of your Orthodox friends for a reference. I could check with mine, but it would be better for you to talk with someone who can immediately answer your questions. Then you ask why did not Jesus say something against it. As Jeff Gillette has already observed, Paul did plainly say something against it, despite the far-fetched interpretations of Boswell. Recall that Paul was addressing Romans and Greeks (Corinthians), not Jews. Besides this, remember that Paul wrote before the Gospels -- his is the first written account of Christian ethics. My point is that homosexuality was a fairly common and accepted behavior among these Gentile communities, and Paul is not misrepresenting the early Christian viewpoint of homo- sexuality, which is derived from Jewish tradition. What about Jesus? First of all, as I've already observed, homo- sexuality was not accepted or common among the Jews, no matter whether it was accepted by the Emporer or other Gentiles of the time. It was absolutely condemned (by stoning). Jesus preached to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, and he criticized their hypocrisy, not that of the others-- they (Jews) were ones who should know better. To begin with, it is very probable that Jesus never came across a persecuted homosexual Jew, there were so few. What he is reported to have met is one adultress, but even this account, although surely accepted, is not placed with certainty in any Gospel; it is added. Finally, even if he had met such a one, what would you expect him to say, except what he told the adultress, "I have not condemned you; go and stop sinning." Jesus did not condemn sinners, but hypocrites. Nevertheless, he recognized sin for what it was. As for his other attitudes about sexuality, they are very clear. First, he says marriage may interfere with ministry, but does not insist upon this for others (at least Peter was married among the first disciples). This is a practical recommendation probably based on his his own personal example. Secondly, he says divorce causes the man and woman to become adulterous. Which may mean unfaithful, as well, in a more general sense. It may also mean that, besides the breaking the faith of marriage, divorce causes adultery afterwards. None of these things is obviously false. And neither of these advices recommends homosexuality; in fact they both presuppose acceptance of heterosexuality. The most revealing thing Jesus says, quoting scripture in Genesis, is that man and woman were made by God for each other, therefore, no man should break this bond (marriage). You may draw your own conclusion about his tacit presuppositions, if you are sincere. There is no room for the persecution of anyone, especially of those who suffer. This is what the Gospel teaches. But there is no recommendation of homosexuality either; it is clear that Jesus accepted the Jewish tradition that men and women were made for each other according to the purpose of God. However, he rejected the merciless cruelty shown to sinners, who after all were suffering anyway, and who might come to repentance if only we were more merciful, as God would have us be.
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (04/02/85)
In article <218@cvl.UUCP> david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) writes: > The homosexuals I have met during this time have almost >without exception been pretty unhappy, with very poor physical >and psychological health, this often according to their own account. The fact thet homosexuals have been rather unhappy could, on the other hand, be related to the fact that US society has had a very oppressive atmosphere to gays. It is, I state from personal experience, rather hard to be very happy when all of your neighbors are calling for your death, imprisonment, or worse. Don't try to deny that "queer bashing" has been a popular sport in the US. And "bashed" gay people were/are reluctant to report such crimes to the police... when a gay person goes to the police to report a crime it is just as likely that they will have another crime committed against them. If their community found them out they were likely to lose their job and home. >is that homosexuality was not accepted, or even common, among the Jews >of that time. It was scandalous. Absolutely condemned by religious >tradition. > Then you ask why did not Jesus say something against it. >Paul did plainly say something against it, despite the far-fetched >interpretations of Boswell. Recall that Paul was addressing Romans >and Greeks (Corinthians), not Jews. > What about Jesus? First of all, as I've already observed, homo- >sexuality was not accepted or common among the Jews, no matter whether >it was accepted by the Emporer or other Gentiles of the time. It was >absolutely condemned (by stoning). Jesus preached to the Jews, not to >the Gentiles, and he criticized their hypocrisy, not that of the others-- >they (Jews) were ones who should know better. To begin with, it is very >probable that Jesus never came across a persecuted homosexual Jew, there >were so few. Stoning was only done for a very few and specific acts. As far as I have been able to determine homosexuality was not one of these. If you have other information please define its source (chapter and verse of the Bible will be sufficient). By all of the studies, 6% to 15% of all men are homosexual *irreguardless of race, religion, or time in history*. Thus your above arguement is bogus horseshit. > As for his other attitudes about sexuality, they are very clear. >First, he says marriage may interfere with ministry, but does not insist You seem to be confusing Jesus and Paul (Saul) here. > The most revealing thing Jesus says, quoting scripture in Genesis, >is that man and woman were made by God for each other, therefore, no man >should break this bond (marriage). You may draw your own conclusion about >his tacit presuppositions, if you are sincere. I've never been married to a woman. Does this mean that I shouldn't break up with my lover of five years. > There is no room for the persecution of anyone, especially of >those who suffer. This is what the Gospel teaches. But there is no >recommendation of homosexuality either; it is clear that Jesus accepted >the Jewish tradition that men and women were made for each other according >to the purpose of God. However, he rejected the merciless cruelty shown to >sinners, who after all were suffering anyway, and who might come to >repentance if only we were more merciful, as God would have us be. -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower