[net.religion] testing God, and evidence for faith

david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (04/01/85)

In reply to a reply:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>From: root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Contrast between intellectual truth and religious desire...
Message-ID: <796@trwatf.UUCP>

> Incidently, aren't there several places in the Bible where men "tested" God?
> Just to name a few, Abraham saying "if only 50 good men don't destroy the
> city" followed by "45" then "40" etc.  Also the "test ye the spirits to know
> if they be of God."  These and others would seem to tell us that we *should*
> test God.  Often it seems that some Christians confuse 'testing' God to
> 'tempting' God.

I think God actually WANTS man to test him.  It would be worse if we simply
ignored him completely.  Through "testing" within our own experiences and
lives we find God at work in the world.  After all, testing God doesn't hurt
him.  It can only help us, if we are true in our goals and methods.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	You are playing with words. The point is that Scripture has it,
"You shall not test the Lord, your God." Jesus quotes this in connection
with one of the three temptations of Christ by Satan, who suggested that
he prove himself by showing that God would save him from self-destruction.
Jesus refused by quoting this. The meaning is that one should not try to
put God on trial, and you will fail in any case. Only God knows our hearts,
and whether we would desire to do His will if only He was revealed to us.
This is not an experiment; this is His certain particular knowledge of us,
which cannot be humanly reproduced.
	As an aside, it is very interesting to consider exactly what were
the three great temptations of Christ -- which should warn us of our own
fallibility as Christians and others living in these dangerous and unjust
times. First, Christ was challenged to make bread of the rocks; but he
replied "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word of God."
That is, Jesus rejected materialism, which ignores spiritual needs.
Secondly, as was just mentioned, Christ rejected proving himself by testing
whether God would save him from self-destruction. And, finally, Christ
was challenged to accept political power over the world, in return for 
dignifying what is evil; but he replied, "You shall honor and serve God
alone." That is Jesus refused the political power of evil.
	What are we to say, therefore, about our 'Christian' times?
	Who is materialistic? Who believes that God will save them 
'miraculously' from destruction by their own hand? Who accepts political
power that is evil?
	How are 'Christians' different from others?
	How are we like Christ who refused these things?
	This is not a test; this is an actual alert. We better believe it.
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> >....... And in the Letter to the Hebrews, it is said that the word
> >of the Lord is sharper than any sword, penetrating our very souls.
> >Certainly, I did also reject Jesus as Christ, and my arrogance was,
> >in that very instant, made plain to me. As it was also to Paul on
> >the road to Damascus. So sure of ourselves, we were wrong about him.

I do believe we have here some of that "evidence" we were looking for.
Would you care to describe further that road to Damascus experience
of yours?  Do you consider this the foundation for your belief?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
	For the apostles, the 'evidence' that Jesus is the Christ is
the self-revelation of God, as I've said before. This is also their
calling to their vocation as witnesses for Christ. As Goethe said in
Faust, Part I, "In the sunshine they will walk abroad, to keep the
raising of the Lord, for they themselves are resurrected." Christ is
resurrected among the living, by the call of the Lord. Why should one
look for him among the dead?
	If you would like to understand that this experience is not
simply 'subjective', but is confirmed again and again, so that it
has inter-subjective reality, then you might read, for example, the
passage on the "Origin of Faith", pp370-381, of On_Being_a_Christian
by Hans Kung. He discusses why the apostles believe certainly, and what
is the meaning of the 'resurrection'. (I am not recommending everything
he says about other matters; I simply glanced at this ppb the other day
when I was in the bookstore. I almost never read theology, although I
admire the (Catholic) Johannine scholar Raymond Brown. Frankly,
I feel that most theology is 'abstract gibberish'. For example, the
'theological' works of Paul Tillich come to mind; but how did this man
actually live? You should read the autobiography of his wife; I simply
cannot believe that this was how God intends us to live, nevermind the
stilted abstraction of his 'theology'.)
	Otherwise, concerning 'evidence', I will quote Paul,
II Corinthians 3.5,6:
	"It is not ourselves that we proclaim; we proclaim Christ Jesus
as Lord, and ourselves as your servants, for his sake. For the same God
who said, 'Out of the darkness let light shine', has caused His light
to shine within us, to give the light of revelation -- the revelation
of the glory of God in the face (appearance) of Jesus Christ."

mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (04/04/85)

In article <238@cvl.UUCP> david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) writes:
> 	As an aside, it is very interesting to consider exactly what were
> the three great temptations of Christ -- which should warn us of our own
> fallibility as Christians and others living in these dangerous and unjust
> times. First, Christ was challenged to make bread of the rocks; but he
> replied "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word of God."
> That is, Jesus rejected materialism, which ignores spiritual needs.
> Secondly, as was just mentioned, Christ rejected proving himself by testing
> whether God would save him from self-destruction. And, finally, Christ
> was challenged to accept political power over the world, in return for 
> dignifying what is evil; but he replied, "You shall honor and serve God
> alone." That is Jesus refused the political power of evil.

It's very interesting to consider that these are precisely the responses we
would expect a fraudulent miracleworker to use to explain why he won't
work a miracle right here and now to show you.  Of course he'll be happy
to tell you of the miracles he worked when you weren't there....
-- 

Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh