david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (04/05/85)
Reply to a comment ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: testing God, and evidence for faith Message-ID: <439@cybvax0.UUCP> In article <238@cvl.UUCP> david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) writes: > As an aside, it is very interesting to consider exactly what were > the three great temptations of Christ -- which should warn us of our own > fallibility as Christians and others living in these dangerous and unjust > times. First, Christ was challenged to make bread of the rocks; but he > replied "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word of God." > That is, Jesus rejected materialism, which ignores spiritual needs. > Secondly, as was just mentioned, Christ rejected proving himself by testing > whether God would save him from self-destruction. And, finally, Christ > was challenged to accept political power over the world, in return for > dignifying what is evil; but he replied, "You shall honor and serve God > alone." That is Jesus refused the political power of evil. It's very interesting to consider that these are precisely the responses we would expect a fraudulent miracleworker to use to explain why he won't work a miracle right here and now to show you. Of course he'll be happy to tell you of the miracles he worked when you weren't there.... -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course, this was not my point at all, as I'm sure you're aware. So that there is no confusion with your opinions, I've reposted my conclusion of this paragraph at the bottom. Perhaps, this passage of the early part of the Gospels is not quite relevant even to the points which I believe you want to make, which are important. But Jesus is here portrayed as rejecting some very common and dangerous temptations -- that is the point of the passage. On the other hand, surely you would not want yourself to accept these temptations, would you? I hope not, whether or not you are religious. Neither would you be impressed if he was portrayed as proving himself to Satan, the accuser, who proposed these things. (I might presuppose that you are familiar with this passage, so that you know what you are talking about, realizing that it was Satan who proposed these things before Jesus began his ministry. Actually, it seems to me that you are not familiar with the Gospels, but are superficially familiar with some criticisms of claims made for Christ.) But your point is: you propose that Jesus prove himself to you, and everyone, by a supernatural act. In this sense, you are his accuser. Also, you wish to disregard the testimony of others, because you prefer your own more 'rational' viewpoint. (And we all do this sometimes, but it is wrong to dismiss the views of those who have no pretty obvious reason to deceive anyone; the earliest followers had no such obvious motivation, but sought to be faithful, yet they were in agreement that God had made known to them that Jesus was the Christ.) This is complicated by three considerations. First, according to Jewish tradition, is the Messiah to prove himself by his own power to act? Second, if he acts, not by his own power, but according to the power of God, can we test him, expecting God to prove this to our satisfaction by acting extraordinarily? Finally, what are we to make of the contradictory references in the Gospel which appeal to the evidence of 'miracles', however we may take this, or rather deny their expectation? This makes for a fair number of problems. Actually, I may be able to answer these partly, but first you will have to want to listen very carefully (I know because I am deaf and cannot hear anything if I do not pay very close attention; on the other hand, if I did not realize that I was deaf, then I would never understand anything at all.) But now that I have your attention, and since you are such a smart son of a gun, I will not deprive you of your conceit, but let you prove that you do not know the answers, but that neither do you want to listen. Why, therefore, would God prove anything to you? After all, God is not foolish, so that he does not conceal some things. Reposting my paragraph together with its intended conclusion: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As an aside, it is very interesting to consider exactly what were the three great temptations of Christ -- which should warn us of our own fallibility as Christians and others living in these dangerous and unjust times. First, Christ was challenged to make bread of the rocks; but he replied "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by the word of God." That is, Jesus rejected materialism, which ignores spiritual needs. Secondly, as was just mentioned, Christ rejected proving himself by testing whether God would save him from self-destruction. And, finally, Christ was challenged to accept political power over the world, in return for dignifying what is evil; but he replied, "You shall honor and serve God alone." That is Jesus refused the political power of evil. What are we to say, therefore, about our 'Christian' times? Who is materialistic? Who believes that God will save them 'miraculously' from destruction by their own hand? Who accepts political power that is evil? How are 'Christians' different from others? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This Passover and Easter, may the Lord deliver the faithful from slavery, who call upon His Name, and divide the waters of history and destruction before them, until they receive what is promised. Even as we are promised, "for love is strong as death; it blazes up like the fire; many waters cannot overcome love, no flood can sweep it away. David Harwood