david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (04/08/85)
For some time, I have been arguing with Lord Frith about what is an inversion of the theme of Job, perhaps the most profound, but figuratively obscure writing in both the old and new testaments. We may express this inverted theme, if we ignore tacit presuppositions, as a complete disjunction "Either there is no God the Creator, or if there is, then He is not merciful." In part, formally, without reviewing the argument, I have tried to show that the presuppositions do not make the disjunction complete: simply, our suppositions about the "purpose" or free Will of God in our creation do not have any meaning, in the sense that if God were absolutely merciful so that suffering did not exist at all, then we should not exist as human beings, having our nature. But if we are to be created in His image, with mercy under- stood in this sense, then there will be suffering for which we are perfectably responsible. So far, we have been arguing about the alternative "Is He not merciful," and I have pointed out that almost all suffering is due to our moral failure, but that steadfast, unselfish good will is the spirit of God in the world, which sustains our creation. And I have remarked on our nature as relatively autonomous moral beings, who are to be perfectably created in the image of God. (If you like, we might say that mankind is "asymptotically" justified, although not simply by providence of the universe, but by special grace as well, depending on the state of consciousness of mankind.) These are simply my own opinions upon reflection, which may, of course, be wrong. And it appears that Lord Frith disagrees with me almost everywhere, although I believe he is amused to disagree with almost everyone. In any case, there is probably no point in continuing our previous discussion of this matter. But there is the alternative issue, "Is there God, the Creator," about which I have made allusion, and made reference to the inter-subjective reality of the self-revelation of God to the early apostles and to some in every generation who have a religious vocation, not to mention the calling of the prophets and other Jewish leaders before the time of Christ. (And quite possibly thereafter, although I am not certain about this: my two Orthodox friends, a distinguished computer scientist and rabbi, and a rabbinical student, are also not certain about this. I would like to hear from any religious Jews whether there are the same kind of "calling" today among them. I wonder about this, and respect their views, which of course they may prefer to keep to themselves. But I have no reason to believe that God does not call Jews to be Jews even today; when I have a Jewish friend who is not religious, I suggest that he find out about his tradition, while appreciating, as my friend, my view of what is Christianity. In the end, if we love the truth, it shall find us out.) Concerning whether "there is God, the Creator," we understand that ultimately we would not be convinced of this unless there was sometimes the self-revelation by God in a extraordinary way. We might say that this self- revelation is like the lightning in the dark landscape of the human racial consciousness before which all creation and history resounds, like the thunder: this is a very compelling figure of speech. But there might be evidence to individuals and not to all; also there might be evidence for the existence of God, but not that He is the Creator. Nevertheless, there may be corroboration of witnesses; and there may compelling evidence that His Power is not at all commensurable with our own. With these things in mind, I am replying to the reply ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: David Harwood on religious experience... Message-ID: <821@trwatf.UUCP> Date: 3 Apr 85 22:25:12 GMT >> I do believe we have here some of that "evidence" we were looking for. >> Would you care to describe further that road to Damascus experience >> of yours? Do you consider this the foundation for your belief? > For the apostles, the 'evidence' that Jesus is the Christ is > the self-revelation of God, as I've said before..... I asked you what YOUR experiences where... not what I can read with my own two eyes in the Bible. I don't suppose you have any such experiences to relate, do you? Not much of a witness then are you? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lord Frith has deleted from the original article my quotation of Paul in II Corinthians 3.5,6: "It is not ourselves that we proclaim; we proclaim Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants, for his sake. For the same God who said, 'Out of the darkness let light shine', has caused His light to shine within us, to give the light of revelation -- the revelation of the glory of God in the face (appearance) of Jesus Christ." I am going to accept your challenge, and tell you what happened to me as simply as possible, although I have never talked about this publicly before, and may appear foolish to others in doing so. I want to make clear that this is my own particular experience of the undeserved grace of God, and is not necessarily like that of others. As it is said, there are many roads to Damascus. But as Paul said, it is by this grace of God that I am the person I am, and not the person I was before. I will be 37 years old this year. Until a very few years ago, I was an atheist, someone who had no interest at all in religion, who was almost totally unfamiliar with the scriptures, who had not attended church since age 13. Very early, I was appalled by the example of so-called 'Christianity', also I was impressed by the power of scientific explanation and engineering, or, rather, I became arrogantly impressed with my own knowledge as I learned about these subjects: to me, the existence of God was a somewhat dangerous, somewhat well-intended fiction believed by the unintelligent; in any case, it was irrelevant. Religion became the furthest thing from my mind; in twenty years, I doubt that I thought about it more than a few times, and, then, in a prejudicial way. Several years ago, I was married for a few years while I was a graduate student. Although I loved my wife, nevertheless I was not truly loving; I largely destroyed the marriage, and my wife left me, which made me feel very unhappy. Anyway, I left MIT where I was a student, and returned to my home state of Texas; I never finished my degree, but began to work. I remember that just before I left I for some inexplicable reason went to the chapel; nevertheless, when I had returned to Texas I did not think about God again for a couple years perhaps. One day in the library I stumbled on a short, autobiographical account by Tolstoi, My Confession, about his reconversion to a somewhat unorthodox Christianity when he was a much older man, having disavowed the Russian Orthodox Church as a young man. I was very touched by what he said. I decided to read the Gospels for what was essentially the first time in my life. And in reminding me of my life, I was convinced that what Jesus said was essentially true about me: I was spiritually lost, arrogant, and unloving. I remember crying some times about my plight. And so, I began to read and reread the scriptures, old as well as new, searching for something I knew not what. Some clue to their reason for faith. Frankly, I did not understand much at all of anything of what I read except for the moral example of Jesus portrayed in the Gospels; I understood this for the first time because it had convicted me. I could not understand the rest; it seemed absurd, or irrelevant, or stupidly obscure. I was struggling to know the truth about myself, and if what Jesus said about me was true, then maybe what he said about other things was also true. But the difficulty for me was simple but absolute: I simply did not believe there is God; and no matter whether Jesus was right about how I was wrong and about how we should live charitably with one another, never- theless, if there is no God, then Christianity is not true. After searching the scriptures for a few weeks, even after trying to pray that God would hear me, I finally came to the definite point where I gave up hope in finding faith. It happened early one morning shortly before daybreak, still in the darkness. I had just given up hope; I set down the Bible, by intention for the last time, and I walked across the still dark room. And as I stood there, I thought to myself what I will never forget; I thought, "Give up this hopeless nonsense; it is a waste of time." And that very instant, when I had given up hope, and had just thought this, I saw before me a very bright flash of light, like the momentarily blinding flash of lightning which is nearby. I was very startled, although I was not harmed, and I was very afraid. Of course, there was no storm, and I was nearly enclosed; neither was there illumination of the room during that instant, so the experience must be psychologically subjective. And there was no sound. However this may be, I instantly understood this totally unexpected event to be a judgement of my own presumptuous arrogance against God. It was as if the Lord did point to what I had just thought, and as if He said to me, "Thou fool -- I am the Lord." For me, this has been the grace of God, and I understand now, with Paul, "I live, but it is not I who live; but it is Christ who lives in me." For me, this event was my own spiritual resurrection as well. David Harwood