arndt@lymph.DEC (04/13/85)
This was posted to net.origins as a reply to some points made by a person. I thought perhaps some of the dialog might be of interest in these nets as well: (Other person) o "The scientific method requires that all ideas and theories be tested and tried." (Ken Arndt) *** ALL rational thought (as theology - the bible - is) is required to be tested and tried. The law of noncontradiction, eh? Otherwise it's just sound! Arf! Arf! You know? (Other person) o "Another requirement for a scientific method is that all preconceived notions must be removed." (Ken Arndt) **** Wrong, Wrong! Don't look now (later than 1700) but there IS NO WAY to remove ALL, that's ALL preconcieved notions!!!! Rational thought, science itself, math, etc, etc. is based upon 'notions' about 'reality'!! Feynman's quote, given by Lew, about physics being a 'model', a WAY of looking at 'reality', etc. etc. There is no non preconceived place to stand - no absolutes from which to start thinking about the 'reality'. (other person) o "In otherwords, the true scientist must be truly objective -- this is extremely difficult." (Ken Arndt) *** Sorry. It appears to be IMPOSSIBLE!!!! Objectivity is a construct of our imagination. Another model. Your starting point seems to be God. "I believe in the all powerful God of the bible . . ." Well, yes I know that's where many Christians DO start. I think that they may be wrong in EXPLAINING their starting point if right in their conclusions. May I refer you to TESTING CHRISTIANITY'S TRUTH CLAIMS: APPROACHES TO CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS, Gordon R. Lewis ed., Moody Press, '76. In particular the sections on the approach of Edward Carnell, p176ff. and the section on Francis Schaefer. ONE HAS TO BE VERY VERY CAREFUL JUST WHAT ONE MEANS WHEN ONE SAYS "I START WITH GOD". Therefore I ask you to clear this up for us. Let me tell you what I mean in the words of this book about Carnell. "Carnell cannot agree . . . that the logical starting point is a direct experience of God." "If experience of God is really self-authenticating and beyond rational examination, theology as an informative discipline is impossible." "Analogously Carnell has a place in his approach for empirical evidence, but perception of the physical world is not his starting point. The attempt to come to the world with a blank mind to nature does not end in knowledge, but skepticism. " . . . the best a pure empiricist can do is to describe a series of disjointed impressions. No universal or necessary laws can be derived from nature." "Rational empiricism also fails to show God's existence." "Granting causality, all one needs to explain a finite universe is a finite God." "If the cause of the universe is greater than the evidence indicates, however, empiricists have no way of knowing it." (Rich Rosen take notice, a point he has made many times!) "THE STARTING POINTS OF PERSONAL TESTIMONY, SENSE DATA, AND RATIONAL PRINCIPLES ALL FALL SHORT OF ABILITY TO CONFIRM OR DISCONFIRM TRUTHCLAIMS ABOUT ONE INFINITE, WISE, AND LOVING GOD." (Italics mine) So where to start????? Carnell says, "The logical starting point is the coordinating ultimate which gives being and meaning to the many of the time-space universe. For Thales it was water; or Anaximines it was air, for Plato it was the Good; and for the Christian it is the Trinity." AN INTRODUCTION TO APOLOGETICS, Eerdmans, '48, p49-50;74-82. This is the old problem of the 'one and the many'. That is, philosophers who explained everything from one thing had difficulty accounting for diverse character of the universe - and the old conundrum of what/who made God? Those who started with many - atoms, etc - had difficulty accounting for the unity of the universe. The Christian answer to the unity and the diversity of the world is a God who exists as three persons in one essence!! THE ULTIMATE EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS IS ITSELF A MULTIPLICITY IN UNITY!! The Trinity is a HYPOTHESIS used as a starting point!!!! A second HYPOTHESIS is that this triune God has revealed himself in the bible. See the difference of this from just saying I assume the 'fact' of God, even the God of the bible??? Now watch carefully. Hypothesis are 'true' only when 'verified' as not contradictory and as adequate to account for all revelant data of experience. That is a far cry from starting from 'exerience' and the 'fact' of God's existence, etc. Someone like Van Til permitted no testing of his presupposition (of God) by logic or experience. And now the capstone!!! Carnell (my hero!) says; "All hypotheses are but patterns of meaning which are thought out by the mind of the investigator to explain the configuration of data which it faces. The hypotheses that work well are called 'theories',and theories that stick are called 'laws'. But let us not forget that these laws are but good hypotheses." Is this not what science, and ALL thought is about. Ergo, what IS the difference between a scientific and a 'religious' theory??? To put my old question again. But there is so much more in Carnell's book and the other book I reference above. Look it up. Warm regards, Ken Arndt
polard@fortune.UUCP (Henry Polard) (04/18/85)
In article <1655@decwrl.UUCP> arndt@lymph.DEC writes: > >Is this not what science, and ALL thought is about. Ergo, what IS the >difference between a scientific and a 'religious' theory??? To put my >old question again. > It seems to me that the fundamental differences between "religious" and "scientific" theories is that religious theories attempt to deal with "private" experiences (people's inner relationships to the universe), whereas scientific theories attempt to deal with "public" experiences ("external" sense perceptions). If this hunch is correct, it may explain why religious and scientific theories are often in bitter conflict. -- Henry Polard (You bring the flames - I'll bring the marshmallows.) {ihnp4,cbosgd,amd}!fortune!polard N.B: The words in this posting do not necessarily express the opinions of me, my employer, or any AI project.
edhall@randvax.UUCP (Ed Hall) (04/21/85)
Einstein said that a ``Religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the signifigance of those supernatural objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation.'' Accordingly, ``A legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist....Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.'' [Quote from `` `Subtle is the Lord...' The Science And The Life Of Albert Einstein'' by Abraham Pais.] Think about it. Conflicts between science and religion exist only because attempts are made to apply concepts from one domain upon the other. -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall