tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (03/18/85)
The fact that Smith said something condemnatory of non-Mormons (if indeed the quote is authentic) in NO WAY shows that the doctrine of the Mormon church is that only Mormons go to Heaven. If it were, then the common NT quote that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" would be proof that in normal Christianity, no one goes to Heaven. Why not just quote the Mormon doctrines if you want to prove that they say something? This approach of "He said X on topic A, so he MUST have believed Y on topic B" is silly. I can't take seriously someone who claims that I am a Mormon when I explicitly stated that my information was from Mormon missionaries. Are the Mormons proselytizing their own now??? This sort of error does not speak for very careful reading. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) (04/03/85)
This is the 1st of 4 postings on the teachings and history of Mormonism (Doctrine of God, Doctrine of Man, Doctrine of Salvation, Brief History of Mormonism). The following information was excerpted from a tract, "The Mormon Mystique," published by the American Tract Society of Garland, Texas. All referenced Mormon documents were either written by Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) or by one of his authorized disciples, or were published by the Mormon church. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Mormon Doctrine --------------- "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." Joseph Smith DOCUMENTARY HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, Vol. IV, p. 161 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6 1. Doctrine of God Mormonism: God the Father has a flesh and bones body (DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS, 130.22). Bible: God the Father is Spirit (John 4:24). * Mormonism: God the Father is simply a man who achieved godhood (HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, V. 6, p. 305). Bible: God the Father has always been God (Ps. 90:2). * Mormonism: God Himself is ever progressing upward in knowledge, wisdom and power (JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, V. 1, p. 93; V. 6, p. 120). Bible: God already possesses eternal wisdom, power, and knowledge, and so never changes (Mal 3:6; Heb 13:8). * Mormonism: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct gods (TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH, p. 370, 372). Bible: There is only one God, but three distinct persons in the Godhead (Deut 6:4; Isa 48:12-13; Matt 3:16-17). * Mormonism: God the Father has Eternal Wives through whom spirit children have been and continue to be born (MORMON DOCTRINE, 1966, p. 516; THE SEER, Orson Pratt, p. 37, 158). Bible: God has no wife and stands alone as God (Isa 46:9). * Mormonism: Christ, before his earthly ministry, was the first spirit child born to the Heavenly Father and Mother (WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST [booklet], p. 37). Bible: Christ is Eternal God, not the product of a conception (John 1:1-2). * Mormonism: Satan [Lucifer] was originally the spirit brother of Christ (THE GOSPEL THROUGH THE AGES, p. 15). Bible: Satan was originally a created angel who led a rebellion against God in heaven. Christ is Creator, Satan a created being (John 1:1-3; Col 1:16; Ezek 28:11-19). * Mormonism: God the Father in His glorified physical body had sexual intercourse with the virgin Mary that resulted in the conception of the physical Christ (MORMON DOCTRINE, p. 547; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, V. 1, p. 51; V. 4, p. 218). Bible: The physical Christ was conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit in the body of the virgin Mary (Matt 1:18-25). * Mormonism: Jesus was man's spiritual brother (the result of the Father's intercourse with His Eternal Wife before the earth was formed) but became a god, equal to the Father, after his death, ascension, and exaltation (THE GOSPEL THROUGH THE AGES, 1958, p. 21). Bible: Jesus Christ presented Himself to men as Eternal God during His earthly ministry (John 5:18, 10:30-33). -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Swanson AT&T Bell Labs Holmdel, NJ ... ihnp4!vax135!gks
bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) (04/04/85)
Can we stop this propaganda series before it starts? (I doubt it, but
it's worth the try.)
Mormon theology is a fairly complex body of concepts, certainly worth
more than a series of quotes out of context followed by quotes from the
Bible (no doubt both taken from non-mormon "literature.")
Given, too, that the source documents for mainstream Christianity (The
New Testament) often contradict the Old Testament, updating it and
revising it, to criticize Smith's revelation on the basis of disagreement
with parts of the Bible is somewhat like the pot calling the kettle black.
Not that there isn't much to be discussed about the LDS faith, but let's
do it honestly rather than hunkering down behind our quotations throwing
charges of heresy like hand grenades. I haven't seen any Mormons casting
aspersions on the more mainstream sects even though Joseph Smith was
martyred at the hands of Christian Americans.
--
Byron C. Howes
...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bchgks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) (04/04/85)
This is the 2nd of 4 postings on the teachings and history of Mormonism (Doctrine of God, Doctrine of Man, Doctrine of Salvation, Brief History of Mormonism). The following information was excerpted from a tract, "The Mormon Mystique," published by the American Tract Society of Garland, Texas. All referenced Mormon documents were either written by Joseph Smith (founder of Mormonism) or by one of his authorized disciples, or were published by the Mormon church. See the article posted recently to net.religion by Rich Wales on Mormon reference works for more information about the works referred to in the following excerpts. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Mormon Doctrine --------------- "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." Joseph Smith DOCUMENTARY HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, Vol. IV, p. 161 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6 1. Doctrine of Man Mormonism: Each person's essence, his intelligence, has always existed and so was never created. Man is as eternal as God Himself. (JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, X, p. 5, VI, p. 6; THE PLAN OF SALVATION [booklet], p. 3; DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS, 93.29). Bible: All men are a creation of God and had no prior existence before their earthly life (Gen 2:18-25; Job 38:1-7). * Mormonism: Each person's spiritual body (which looks like his earthly body) that clothed his intelligence in the pre-existent state was formed by the sexual union of the Father and one of His spirit wives (THE SEER, Orson Pratt, p. 37). Bible: Man did not pre-exist and the Father had no wife (see above and Isa 46:9). * Mormonism: Adam's fall in the Garden of Eden was a "fall upward" that was not sinful, but rather necessary for the propagation of the human race (JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, V. 13, p. 145, V. 10, p. 312; PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, Moses 5:10-12; DOCTRINES OF SALVATION, V. 1, pp. 114-115). Bible: Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden caused spiritual and physical death for all persons (Gen 3:16-24; Rom 5:12-21). * Mormonism: Adam's fall in the Garden of Eden "became a necessary, honorable act in carrying out the plan of the Almighty" (JOSEPH SMITH - SEEKER OF TRUTH, p. 160). Bible: Man's sin is not the result of the plan of God (Jam 1:13-17). * Mormonism: Man has the potential of becoming God, just as Christ did; man is king of kings and lord of lords in embryo (TIMES AND SEASONS, Aug. 1, 1844; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, V. 10, p. 223; HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, V. 6, p. 306; DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS, 132.20). Bible: God alone has been and always shall be God (Isa 43:10, 44:8, 46:9). Man has been punished because he thought he could make himself God (Ezek 28:1-10). * Mormonism: A baptized Mormon convert has his Gentile blood purged and replaced by the blood of Abraham via the Holy Spirit. Thus he becomes the actual offspring of Abraham (HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, V. 3, p. 380; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, V. 2, p. 269). Bible: True believers in Jesus Christ become Abraham's "offspring" in the sense that they become heirs of the promises of God, as did Abraham (Gal 3:26-29). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Swanson AT&T Bell Labs ... ihnp4!vax135!gks
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (04/05/85)
In article <450@mcnc.mcnc.UUCP> bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) writes: > Can we stop this propaganda series before it starts? (I doubt it, but > it's worth the try.) Actually, I welcome this sort of thing. Not because it is divisive, but because it highlights some of the more interesting and non-conventional beliefs of Mormons. Of which I'm quite ignorant. I don't much care about the Biblical quotes so much as the quotes from Mormon sources. I want to know the Mormon interpretation of those quotes, even if it is in the context of reconciling them with the bible. My own feeling is that the more religions people are exposed to, the less they'll be able to credit any, including their own. I think that's a good thing. "Enquiring minds want to KNOW".... :-) -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) (04/09/85)
This is the 3rd of 4 postings on the teachings and history of
Mormonism (Doctrine of God, Doctrine of Man, Doctrine of
Salvation, Brief History of Mormonism).
The following information was excerpted from a tract, "The
Mormon Mystique," published by the American Tract Society of
Garland, Texas.
All referenced Mormon documents were either written by Joseph
Smith (founder of Mormonism) or by one of his authorized
disciples, or were published by the Mormon church.
See the end of this posting for an article posted recently to
net.religion by Rich Wales on Mormon reference works for more
information about the references in the following excerpts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mormon Doctrine
---------------
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most
correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our
religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding
by its precepts, than by any other book."
Joseph Smith
DOCUMENTARY HISTORY OF
THE CHURCH, Vol. IV,
p. 161
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those
who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he
will rebuke you and prove you a liar."
Proverbs 30:5-6
1. Doctrine of Salvation
Mormonism: Christ's blood shed on the cross only provides for the
universal resurrection of all people and does not pay for personal
sin (THIRD ARTICLE OF FAITH; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, V. 3, p. 247;
MORMON DOCTRINE, pp. 62, 669).
Bible: The blood of Christ was shed on the cross for the cleansing and
forgiveness of sin (Heb 9:14,22; I John 1:7).
*
Mormonism: Christ's "blood" shed in the Garden of Gethsemane (Luke 22:44)
atones for most personal sin (CHURCH NEWS, Oct. 9, 1982, p. 19).
Bible: Christ paid for sin in His body on the cross (I Pet 2:24).
*
Mormonism: The gospel includes "all of the laws, principles, rites,
ordinances, acts, powers, authorities, and keys necessary to
exalt men in the highest heaven hereafter" (MORMON DOCTRINE,
p. 331).
Bible: The biblical Gospel includes Christ dying for sins, his burial,
and his verified resurrection from the dead (I Cor 15:1-8).
The Gospel does not include laws (Rom 3:19-24), or
ordinances (Col 2:16-17), or works (Tit 3:5-7).
*
Mormonism: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints (Mormons)
restored the true gospel to the earth through Joseph Smith,
and the true gospel is found only in it today (MORMON DOCTRINE,
p. 334; TEACHINGS OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH, p. 119).
Bible: Christ promised that the true church would never disappear from
the earth (Matt 16:18), and Paul warned that any gospel apart
from the Gospel of faith in Jesus Christ which he preached
was not true (Gal 1:6-9; 3:22-24).
*
Mormonism: Mormon "salvation" comes through a combination of faith,
baptism in the church, and works (MORMON DOCTRINE, pp. 669-
670; ENSIGN, Nov. 1982, p. 61).
Bible: Biblical salvation comes by grace through personal faith in
Jesus Christ as Savior disregarding all works (Eph 2:8-9).
*
Mormonism: Eternal life (the power to attain godhood and have children
in heaven) can only be achieved through obedience to the
Mormon church and having one's marriage sealed in a Temple
ceremony by the Mormon priesthood (JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES,
V. 11, pp. 221, 269; MORMON DOCTRINE, p. 411).
Bible: Eternal life is entering into an eternal knowledge of and
fellowship with God and is achieved by personal faith in
Christ as Savior (John 17:3; Rom 5:21, 6:23; I John 5:11-13).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wales@ucla-cs.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Material on Mormons by Mormons
Date: Tue, 2-Apr-85 14:30:18 EST
Robert D. Zarcone <rdz@ccice5.UUCP> asked for some pointers to addi-
tional readings on the LDS (Mormon) church. I am posting my reply to
the net, rather than mailing it directly to Mr. Zarcone, because I think
it may be of general interest.
"Mormonism" is a very difficult subject to write on totally objectively,
since the way the writer views the topic is almost certainly going to be
heavily colored by his/her opinion. This is certainly true of the anti-
Mormon literature, and -- without minimizing my own pro-Mormon view in
any way -- I will freely admit that most literature about my church
written by members thereof is very openly pro-Mormon.
Regarding doctrinal sources, I would first direct you to the volumes we
use as scripture. These are the Bible (we use the King James Version in
English-speaking countries), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Cove-
nants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
Our most important non-scriptural doctrinal works would probably be the
two volumes "Jesus the Christ" and "The Articles of Faith", both written
by James E. Talmage in the early 1900's.
For a general treatment of our history, I would suggest "The Mormon
Experience" by Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton (Vintage Books,
1979; ISBN 0-394-74102-1). The authors are the LDS Church's historian
and his assistant, respectively; both have been history professors at
various universities. This is probably the best book out at this time;
although admittedly favorable to the Church, it is definitely not a
whitewash. "The Mormon Experience" is not a doctrinal work, and prob-
ably won't answer your more in-depth questions about LDS beliefs.
As for more-or-less "raw" or "primary" historical sources, there are
three important multi-volume works.
(1) The seven-volume "History of the Church" is basically Joseph Smith's
journal (Volume 7, though, covers the first few years of Brigham
Young's leadership).
(2) "Comprehensive History of the Church" (also about seven volumes, I
think) was written by B. H. Roberts and published around 1930 for
the centennial of the Church's founding (6 April 1830).
(3) The 25-volume "Journal of Discourses" is a collection of speeches
made by various Church leaders primarily during the second half of
the 19th century in Utah. With regard to the Journal of Discourses,
two points need to be kept clearly in mind:
(a) Some of the people who recorded these speeches didn't do a very
good job -- things were left out and/or garbled -- and as a re-
sult some pretty crazy things (which no Mormon believes or has
ever believed) can be found in the Journal of Discourses if you
look hard enough. This fact has given anti-Mormon writers no
end of enjoyment. :-}
(b) Not everyone quoted in the Journal of Discourses was what you
might consider an authorized expositor of Church doctrine and
practice. It has long been our understanding that only the
Lord's prophet (the President of the Church) can make original,
authoritative statements regarding Church teachings.
We do not, in general, use the Journal of Discourses as a basis for
teaching doctrines that are not adequately substantiated elsewhere.
As for where you might find any or all of the above:
(1) The KJV Bible can, of course, be found essentially anywhere. We did
publish our own edition of the KJV in 1979 (no textual changes, but
the footnotes, concordance, dictionary, and maps are brand-new).
One very useful innovation in the 1979 LDS edition was that the
little letters stuck into the body of the text as references to the
footnotes start over again with each verse -- rather than each chap-
ter as has traditionally been done (i.e., the footnotes in a given
chapter are identified something like "1a", "1b", "1c", "2a", "2b",
"3a", etc.).
(2) The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price
are published by the LDS Church (of course) -- usually all three in
a single cover, though the Book of Mormon is published by itself as
well. If you can't find these in a nearby library, you should be
able to find them through the Church.
If you live near a university, I would suggest looking in the phone
book under "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" for an
"Institute of Religion" (our college-level supplementary religious
instruction program). Most Institutes have sizable LDS libraries
and would be more than willing to let you come over and browse
through their collections (without applying undue pressure on you to
convert, I should add).
If there is no Institute in your area, you might start calling other
phone-book listings for the Church. You should easily be able to
find these books -- either for free or for just a few dollars. If
you make contact through full-time missionaries or a local congrega-
tion ("ward"), you will probably find that people assume you are
interested in converting. If so, great (no smiley-face); if not,
just say so.
(3) As for the other books listed above (Jesus the Christ, Articles of
Faith, and the multi-volume historical works), I would make the same
suggestions. Check your local libraries -- particularly university
libraries -- and/or a local Institute of Religion. Full-time mis-
sionaries should have easy access to copies of "Jesus the Christ"
and "Articles of Faith", though probably not to the historical com-
pilations. Again, if your intent is not to convert, but simply to
find out information, be honest and up-front; most people will re-
spect your wishes (though, admittedly, they may hold out hope that
you might change your mind after finding out more).
I hope this helps some.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rich Wales
University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)
Computer Science Department
3531 Boelter Hall
Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Phone: (213) 825-5683 // +1 213 825 5683
ARPANET: wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA
UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!wales
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"UCLA" is a registered trademark of
The Regents of the University of California
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
************************************************************************
Ken Swanson
AT&T Bell Labs
... ihnp4!vax135!gkswales@ucla-cs.UUCP (04/09/85)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dic-
tates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let
them worship how, where, or what they may."
LDS Articles of Faith, #11
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some comments are in order regarding Ken Swanson's articles contrasting
Latter-day Saint (Mormon) beliefs with those of evangelical Protestant-
ism (as put forth by the "American Tract Society" of Garland, Texas).
Statements in this article regarding the beliefs of other churches are
made to the best of my personal knowledge and are intended to be non-
inflammatory. If I have inadvertently misstated the teachings of some
other group, I hope someone who knows better will step in and set the
record straight.
(1) The Bible and other scriptures.
Not only does our view of the Bible differ somewhat from that of
most other Christians (evangelical Protestants in particular), but
it also differs from what many other Christians think our view is!
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does believe in the
Bible. However, unlike many other Christian churches, we do not be-
lieve that the Bible in its current form is a complete, error-free
guide to Christian life. In our view, there are at least three main
reasons why the Bible as we now have it is incomplete:
(a) Many writings have been lost which, if we had them, would be
just as important and useful to mankind as the surviving books.
(b) In many cases, the writings which have come down to us have been
added to, taken from, and/or "altered in place". Some of these
changes can be seen by comparing different texts (for example,
there are differences between the Masoretic OT text and the Sep-
tuagint), but many (even most) of the changes are unfindable be-
cause they predate the oldest manuscripts available today.
(c) Most importantly, we believe, the books of the Bible were never
intended -- either by their individual authors or by God Himself
-- to be a self-contained, all-encompassing handbook to the be-
liever. Central to our faith is the idea that God's followers
in all times and places should be led by ongoing revelation of
His will to living prophets and spokesmen.
I realize that many churches -- particularly the evangelical Protes-
tant churches -- believe strongly in the idea that the Bible is "the
Word, the whole Word, and nothing but the Word". Such groups would
reject my point (c) above altogether, and argue that points (a) and
(b) have been overruled by divine providence and intervention so as
to allow us to have a perfect, infallible Bible. To such people, my
suggestion that the Bible is less than 100% perfect probably sounds
like a total rejection of the Bible and everything it teaches. All
I can say, for what it may be worth, is that no Latter-day Saint who
understands and practices his/her religion rejects the Bible in any
such way as most "anti-Mormon" literature would have one suppose.
Such scriptural passages as Deuteronomy 4:2, II Timothy 3:15-16, and
Revelation 22:18-19 are frequently cited as evidence that the Bible
is complete, and that anyone who purports to bring forth additional
revelation from God must by definition be a charlatan. The LDS view
is that these passages, and others like them, simply point out that
man cannot presume, on his own, to change what God has said. If God
chooses to reveal more to us, no Bible passage can possibly forbid
Him from doing so.
In particular, we believe that Joseph Smith was specifically chosen
by our Saviour, Jesus Christ, as His spokesman for our day -- just
as Peter and the other Apostles were chosen for this purpose in the
first century A.D. Hence, when Joseph Smith brought forth the Book
of Mormon and other modern-day revelation, he was not making unau-
thorized changes/additions to scripture, any more than the writings
of the Apostle Paul could be called unauthorized additions to the
Jewish scriptures (from the Christian point of view, of course -- I
realize that Judaism would disagree).
The Book of Mormon is, in our belief, an item of modern-day revela-
tion given through Joseph Smith. It is a condensed religious record
(slightly more than 500 pages long) of a group of people who lived
in the Western Hemisphere. In its orientation it is heavily Chris-
tian throughout, and (to me) one of the most moving portions of the
entire book is the section (III Nephi 11-26) where the resurrected
Jesus Christ appears to the people, teaches them, and sets up His
church among them.
To those who would be tempted to dismiss the Book of Mormon out of
hand, I would urge you not to be satisfied with what other people
say about it (be they Mormons like me, or writers of anti-Mormon
tracts). Rather, get a copy of the Book of Mormon and read it for
yourself with an open mind and an open heart.
The reason Joseph Smith said that "the Book of Mormon was the most
correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and
a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book" (History of the Church, v.4, p.461 -- not p.161 as
incorrectly stated in the tract) is twofold:
(a) Since the Book of Mormon was translated directly from the orig-
inal record by a divinely inspired prophet, it does not suffer
from problems in transmission down through the ages -- except
possibly for minor clerical errors here and there in the course
of writing down the original documents, translating them into
English, or publishing the result.
(b) More importantly, the very existence of the Book of Mormon is
evidence of the calling and responsibility given to Joseph
Smith, and an indirect witness to the truth of the other things
he said and did. Hence, if someone comes to know the truth of
the Book of Mormon, he will be led to the other truths that God
has restored to the earth through His modern-day prophets.
(As an incidental note to those who read my previous article about
Mormon sources, the "Documentary History of the Church" referred to
in the tract is an informal name for "History of the Church" --
Joseph Smith's journal. The longer name is sometimes used in order
to help distinguish it from B. H. Roberts' "Comprehensive History of
the Church".)
Again, I'm sure that some people will inevitably interpret Joseph's
comment as a wholesale indictment of the Bible -- but, again, this
was not his intent at all, and the people he was talking to realized
exactly what he meant. Rather than cut down the Bible, we believe
that the contributions of Joseph Smith and his successors help us to
understand the Bible and live the teachings contained therein.
When you consider the vast number of Christian churches today -- all
(or just about all) of which claim to believe the Bible, but which
frequently disagree vehemently on many matters of vital importance
-- the idea that God might appoint another spokesman for our time to
set people straight should not really be that unreasonable. After
all, the Christians of the first century had the apostles right
there with them to teach them -- are we really so much better off
than those people that we don't need living, inspired leaders and
can make do with fragments of the writings of the early Saints?
(2) The virgin birth.
Ken's tract states that Mormons believe Christ was conceived through
sexual intercourse between God the Father and the virgin Mary.
Two comments:
(a) The three sources quoted in the tract do not substantiate this
claim. Rather, the point made by the sources is actually that
even though the conception of Christ was accomplished through
the power of the Holy Ghost, the Saviour was not fathered by
the Holy Ghost, but was literally the Son of God the Father.
Nowhere is the phrase "sexual intercourse", or any of its com-
monly understood euphemisms, used in any of the statements cited
(nor any others I am aware of).
(By the way, the reference to page 547 of Bruce R. McConkie's
encyclopedic work "Mormon Doctrine" has to be an error. I as-
sume the correct reference is to the article on "Virgin Birth"
on page 745 of this book. The other two sources are speeches
by Brigham Young, made in 1852 and 1857 respectively.)
To my knowledge, no authoritative statements have been made by
LDS Church leaders regarding the exact technical means or phys-
ical mechanism used to bring about the conception of Jesus.
The noted LDS scholar James E. Talmage, in his 1915 magnum opus
"Jesus the Christ", said (on page 81) that Jesus was begotten
"not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher
manifestation thereof"; from this I think one can safely con-
clude that some sort of "miracle" was involved.
(b) More to the point, though, I suspect the real basis of the ob-
jection is that the writers of the tract in question consider
physical matter in general, and sexuality in particular, to be
inherently evil -- and the idea that God might both have a
physical body and participate in any kind of sex relationship
to be blasphemous.
This concept goes back at least as far as the first-century
Gnostics -- no doubt farther still. Some of the early Gnostic
versions of Christianity even went so far, I understand, as to
teach that Jesus never really had a physical body at all -- that
it was all an illusion -- for the idea that God would associate
so intimately with evil matter as to take a physical body was
too much for them. While this particular interpretation did die
out, other people taught that the "original sin" of Adam and Eve
was sexual in nature -- an idea which I believe is still quite
prevalent in the thinking of many Christians today.
Let me simply say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe any
of these teachings regarding matter or sex being evil in and of
themselves.
(3) Nature of God and man.
Our beliefs regarding God and man do admittedly differ from those of
most other Christians (particularly those of the authors of Ken's
tract). Since the tract did not really adequately explain what we
believe (I don't really think that was its intent), let me see if I
can do better. The following is admittedly a highly abbreviated
effort to produce a sketchy outline of an involved subject.
It is definitely an LDS belief that we are all children of God, our
Heavenly Father, in the literal sense that our spirits were begotten
by Him and lived with Him before we were born here on the earth.
This life on earth is meant to be a test of our faith and determina-
tion. If we pass it, we will be able to return to Heavenly Father's
presence and eventually become like He is. (There are some passages
in the Bible which support this view, by the way: for instance, see
Matthew 5:48, Romans 8:17, Galatians 4:1-7, I John 3:2, and Revela-
tion 3:21.) When I speak of "passing" the test of earth life, I am
implicitly taking into account that we must accept Christ's atone-
ment for our sins in order to "pass"; without Him, nothing we might
do would mean anything at all. Provision is made, by the way, for
those who didn't have an opportunity to accept and follow Christ in
this life, but who would have if they had had the chance.
Becoming like our Heavenly Father means, among other things, that we
will be able to have our own "spirit children" and help them through
the same path of growth through their own life on their own earth.
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus
Christ, and in the Holy Ghost" (Articles of Faith, #1), but we do
not accept the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity and do
not believe that it is taught in the Bible. We believe the refer-
ences to "oneness" of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost mean that they are
completely and perfectly united in all their thoughts and purposes.
A prime example of this can be found in John 18:21 (read the entire
chapter for context), in which Jesus prays that his followers may
all be one in the same way as He and His Father are one.
We believe that we will regain our physical bodies in the Resurrec-
tion and keep them throughout eternity. We believe that Heavenly
Father has a physical body, like ours except that His is glorified
and perfected (as ours will be after the Resurrection).
We believe that marriage and family life are eternal concepts, and
that marriage can (and should) last for eternity. By corollary, we
believe that our Heavenly Father is eternally married.
We believe that Jesus was the firstborn of our Heavenly Father's
spirit children, and that He distinguished Himself to such an extent
by His understanding, obedience, and righteousness that He was se-
lected to be the Redeemer of mankind before this earth was formed.
Moreover, essentially all of our Heavenly Father's dealings with us
here on earth have been conducted by and through Jesus Christ --
even before His mortal birth.
We believe that Adam and Eve's transgression in the Garden of Eden
was a necessary part of God's plan for us. We do not share the
beliefs of some who feel that Adam and Eve frustrated God's original
plan. We reject the traditional Christian concept of original sin,
and we do not believe that children need to be baptized for the re-
mission of sins. In fact, we do not even customarily refer to Adam
and Eve's action as a "sin", since sin in our view requires under-
standing of good and evil -- something which Adam and Eve did not
possess until after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree so
named.
Many Christians misunderstand LDS teachings regarding the nature of
God, and believe that we are seeking to make God in our image or
pull Him down to our level. In fact, quite the opposite is true:
God created man in His own image (Genesis 1:27) -- something which,
as you can see, we believe quite literally -- and it will be to His
everlasting glory and credit that He can pull us up to His level if
we are willing to obey Him.
I hope the above has cleared up a few things in the minds of the readers
of "net.religion" regarding what we Mormons really believe. To those
who feel that the LDS Church is trying to deceive people, and that anti-
Mormon tracts are better sources of correct information than statements
by the Mormons themselves, I hope you will realize that what I have
written in this article -- thought admittedly not by any means exhaust-
ive -- is not an attempt at deception.
--
Rich Wales // UCLA Computer Science Department // +1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA
wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!waleswales@ucla-cs.UUCP (04/27/85)
Ken Swanson's third article contrasting the teachings of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the "Mormon" or "LDS" church) with
those of evangelical Protestantism contains numerous misunderstandings
of the LDS viewpoint which I would like to try to clarify.
There are, to be sure, some genuine differences between "Mormonism" and
evangelical Protestantism. These fall into at least four separate (but
intricately interconnected) areas:
(1) The nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of mankind.
(2) The conditions under which forgiveness of sin is available to man;
or, stated another way, what (if anything) a given person must do in
order to be "saved".
(3) The role, if any, of a formal church organization in the life of a
believer in (and/or follower of) Jesus Christ.
(4) The way in which one may come to a realization and understanding of
religious truth.
I will discuss each of these three areas in turn, in three or four sep-
arate articles (since a single article covering everything would be far
too long). My motive in doing this is to attempt to supply correct
information regarding the LDS Church from the standpoint of a believing,
practicing member (namely, myself), on the assumption that such info
would be interesting to at least some of the readers of "net.religion".
If, in this or another article, I misstate the position of some other
church, I hope anyone who knows better will forgive my honest mistake
and set me (and the net) straight.
Where I cite passages from the scriptures (either the Bible, or the
other books which we consider to be scripture as well), I am doing so
only to show examples of where various points are discussed in scrip-
tural writings. The verses cited are usually not the only (and maybe
not even the best) examples of the points I am making, and it is most
certainly not my intent to engage in the highly risky practice of
"proof-texting" (i.e., trying to prove something via a single verse, or
handful of verses, quoted without regard to context).
Further, as I have mentioned before, many LDS teachings are not ade-
quately documented in the Bible, and our beliefs in many cases differ
from traditionally accepted interpretations of the Bible. We believe
the Bible to be a sacred record of God's dealings with man, but we do
not believe that it contains everything that God has ever revealed to
man. Most Protestants -- particularly evangelicals -- undoubtedly feel
such a position to be inherently self-contradictory, but we don't.
Finally -- though I plan to discuss this in more detail later on -- I
should mention that members of the LDS Church do not (or, at least, are
continually urged not to) rely on intricate scholastic arguments as the
basis for their beliefs. We believe heavily in understanding religious
truth through direct revelation from God -- both to specially appointed
messengers or "prophets", and also to each individual member as he seeks
to learn the truth and live his own life in accordance therewith.
With that in mind, here goes.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| The nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ for the sins of mankind. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
It is the teaching of the LDS Church that the transgression of Adam and
Eve in the Garden of Eden -- namely, their partaking of the fruit of the
tree of knowledge of good and evil -- had two principal effects on them
and their posterity:
(a) They became mortal. (Genesis 3:19)
(b) They became isolated or separated from God. (Genesis 3:24)
We frequently refer to these two effects as "physical death" and "spiri-
tual death", respectively.
I should also mention, by the way, that "spiritual death" itself encom-
passes two somewhat distinct concepts in our view:
(a) We believe that all mankind existed as spirits and lived with God,
our Heavenly Father, before we were born here on earth. As an es-
sential part of our earthly experience, our knowledge and memory of
specific events of our pre-earth life have been temporarily masked
or suppressed, and we are no longer in the face-to-face presence of
God; hence, we are forced to live by faith rather than by direct
knowledge of God. This kind of temporary "spiritual death" is, in
our belief, a critically important element in our eternal growth.
(Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 3:25)
(b) To the extent that a person knowingly rebels against God by acting
contrary to his own knowledge and understanding of right and wrong,
that person isolates himself from God. This aspect of separation
from our Heavenly Father is something that each of us brings upon
himself by his own actions. As I stated in my previous article, we
do not subscribe to the theory of "original sin" (the belief that,
as a result of Adam's transgression, each of us is automatically
guilty of sin from the time of birth). (Articles of Faith #2)
Jesus Christ's atonement for mankind reversed these two "deaths" in the
following way:
(a) The "physical death" has been overcome for everyone, without any
exceptions. (I Corinthians 15:21-22)
(b) The "spiritual death" has also been overcome, but only for those
who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour and follow Him. Those who
refuse to follow Christ as their Redeemer will not be forgiven of
their sins and will remain separated from God. (Acts 10:42-43;
Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-17)
The anti-Mormon tract quoted in Ken's article asserts that we do not
believe that Christ's atonement (symbolized by His blood shed on the
cross) paid for man's personal sins. This flawed understanding of our
position apparently came from a misreading of a talk given by Brigham
Young in 1856 (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, pp. 243-249; tract cites
page 247), in which he explained how those who sin (and, implicitly, do
not subsequently repent of their actions -- a point undoubtedly under-
stood by those listening to the talk, by the way), will have to pay for
their own sins -- the blood of Christ will not atone for them. This
perspective on the Saviour's atonement is explained still further in a
revelation which He gave to Joseph Smith in March 1830:
"For behold, I, God [in this context, Jesus Christ], have suf-
fered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they
would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even
as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of
all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and
to suffer both body and spirit -- and would [i.e., wish or desire]
that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink -- nevertheless,
glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations
unto the children of men [i.e., He completed His atonement for the
sins of mankind]." (D&C 19:15-19; see also Luke 22:44, as well as
Mosiah 3:7 in the Book of Mormon.)
Alternatively, the point of disagreement here may have to do with the
question of whether mere belief in Christ -- irrespective of the quality
of life lived after said belief starts -- is sufficient to save someone.
I will discuss this issue in more detail in a later article.
Ken's tract also states that "Christ paid for sin in His body on the
cross" and takes exception to the LDS idea that the Saviour's experience
the night before in the Garden of Gethsemane was instrumental as part of
His atonement. The tract's authors have apparently gotten the notion
that we Mormons consider the Atonement to have been complete after Geth-
semane, and His death therefore to have been an extraneous frill.
While it is true that we do believe Jesus's agony in Gethsemane (Matthew
26:36-46; Mark 14:32-42; Luke 22:39-46) was a crucial step in His taking
our sins upon Himself, it would be a grave misinterpretation for someone
to suppose that we consider this incident so preeminent as to make His
subsequent death unimportant.
In actual fact, most LDS theologians whose writings I am familiar with
consider the entirety of Christ's sinless life, suffering, and death to
be part and parcel of His Atonement. I assume this perspective is
shared by many other Christian writers as well -- though I am aware that
some Christians do emphasize the Crucifixion and downplay other events
of Jesus's life to an extent I would consider inappropriate.
--
Rich Wales // UCLA Computer Science Department // +1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA
wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!wales