arndt@lymph.DEC (04/30/85)
ABOUT THE FOLLOWING SUBMISSION:
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Holly,
You seem to expect that I (as a latter-day-saint), or any other person
can recieve a witness of truth through thier study of books. (Bible,
Book of Mormon, Church History, Etc.) This is simply not the case. A
knowledge of the truth comes ONLY by revelation from God which comes
by the Holy Ghost. Prayer, Obedience, and Study are all essential. Study
by ITSELF can assure nobody of truth. My testimony of God has come through
prayer and personal revelation. Only after this can I now know that God
has restored his Kingdom on earth through the instrument of a modern
prophet. All of the scripture bashing in the world can never convince you
or I to change our convictions. Don't ask your books, ask your Father in
Heaven. Do not suppose that this is all. Upon recieving a witness from
the Spirit, we must continue in faith, prayer, study of the revealed word, and
obedience to the commandments that are contained therein.
Tony Martinez
"If any of ye lack wisdom, let him as of God" James 1:5
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I believe Tony has made several serious errors in his thinking. He eschews
the use of 'books' as a source of truth but writes us to tell of it. Remember
Tony, in the US anything over 50 pages is termed a 'book'!!! So don't write
too much about it.
"Don't ask your books, ask your Father in Heaven." says Tony. But hasn't that
already been done over a long period of time and the message given from God
written down for the express purpose of telling others and passing it on?
The very thing YOU are doing on the net! I could say, don't ask Tony, ask
God. Now remember, we are NOT asking God which way to part hair or what to
have for lunch, but the larger questions on our ultimate fate & what it all
means. It seems rather common sense that since we appear to all be in the
same time zone the same facts about the case would apply to all. Therefore,
it IS logical to 'ask the bible'.
This is a standard Morman cop out when presured to account for passages of
the bible that identify them as cursed - to use Paul's not nicy, nicy phrase.
"I testify" they say on your doorstep. What they mean is , "I ignore the
plain sense of scripture and accept the 'new scripture' from the hand of
the angel to brother Smith. I 'feel' that this is so. After much looking
everywhere except the record God has already given that men have written
down in the 'Usenet' of their day - just like Tony is doing, eh?
What the Mormans are really saying is that the Book of Morman and the
teachings of the Morman Church that stem from the 'prophet' Smith,
supercedes the rest of the Bible. How does one actually get to
KNOW this? Well, one goes off by oneself (and God) and God gives you a
personal message that it is so to which you come back to us all and
'testify'.
The 'Christians' have twisted the truth which Mr. Smith has restored.
The proof is in how they don't agree among themselves, right? But
lo there are mucho Morman groups that don't speak to each other as
well. Golly.
Tony says; "Prayer, Obedience and Study are all essential." Prayer about
WHAT (prayer beyond 'Ohmmmm' has content,eh?), Obedience to WHAT, STUDY OF
WHAT???? Remember, not books or apparently anything that can be stated so
that it can be 'booked', right?
Satan is insulting your intelligence Tony. God appeals to it.
Your cult twists passages like I Cor. 2:13 "This is what we speak, not in
words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit,
expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words." But if your method of
learning the 'truth' is right - seek a personal message from God and
then read the scriptures - how can Paul write these words and have them
be meaningful to us in the first place? It would be the same mistake you
make in your statements!! Either God speaks and one can repeat it or not.
If not, what are you speaking for? If He does, why not read and follow the
scriptures? After all, the scriptures plainly warn against FALSE prophets
who twist what God has already spoken, do they not? What is the test? Can
you guess? (Hint - they contradict what God has said is the truth!)
The passage above by Paul, read in context of the flow of the point he is
making, is not saying truth is mystical and comes from immediate personal
transmission from God to each man but that the CONTENT of the truth is not
easy to understand if one does not accept the framework of God is in the
heavens to begin with. The assumptions people start with blind them to the
truth. It also says we can only know so much about God without him saying
something about himself to us. So human speculation about God, 'human wisdom',
is limited. It clearly states 'spiritual words' which it would seem to mean
something one can express as one and all do. Even Mormans!
Now I work with Mormans. They are swell people. I like them a lot.
Marie has danced her way through my heart! But they are wrong about
God! And cursed for it! I am not happy about that, but they refuse
to be instructed.
Christ says, "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this
book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues
described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book
of prophecy,God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and
in the holy city." Rev.22:18-19
Christ is clearly portrayed in Revelation contrary to the teaching of the
Mormans - all 30 or so groups of them.
Regards,
Ken Arndt
coryb@tekecs.UUCP (Cory Barker) (05/02/85)
In response to a posting by Tony Martinez discussing how truth is learned Rick Frey writes, > active part in the procurement of truth. They don't just sit around, > reading and waiting for the Holy Spirit to hit them on the head, they > "examined" the scriptures for themselves. In a related article Ken Arndt writes, > I believe Tony has made several serious errors in his thinking. He eschews > the use of 'books' as a source of truth but writes us to tell of it. ... The two replies indicate that the authors understand Tony to be stating that books, scripture, or whatever have no use in the search for truth. I think that Tony is being misunderstood here. He in fact states that study is an essential part of the process. In a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith the Lord stated, Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in you mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore you shall feel that it is right. Near the end of the Book of Mormon the Prophet Moroni states, Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. These passages are the best statement that I know of explaining the Latter Day Saint belief on this subject. They clearly point out that we must study the things we are going to ask about before we ask and I know that Tony understands this. Rick Frey later poses a question, > In your post you made the statement that truth comes only from a > revalation from God and *not* from books. But how do you deal with a > book that claims to be a revalation from God? A book may claim to be a revelation from God but I know of no other way of knowing whether or not the book really is the true word of God than the method that Tony and the above quotes specify. Ken Arndt later continues, > This is a standard Morman cop out when presured to account for passages of > the bible that identify them as cursed - to use Paul's not nicy, nicy phrase. > "I testify" they say on your doorstep. What they mean is , "I ignore the > plain sense of scripture and accept the 'new scripture' from the hand of > the angel to brother Smith. I 'feel' that this is so. After much looking What is wrong with a person testifying about the things which the Lord has revealed to them? The way that I understand the Bible, this is what Peter did in the 16th chapter of Matthew when he testified that Jesus is the Christ. Jesus then pointed out that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him but his Father in Heaven had. When true testimony is borne by the power of the Holy Ghost, those who have ears to hear will hear and know that the truth is being spoken. I testify that Jesus Christ suffered and died to provide all of us the opportunity to be forgiven of our sins. He was resurrected and lives today. I know that God the Father and Jesus Christ did in reality appear to Joseph Smith and restored the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth through him. I know that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true witnesses that Jesus is the Christ. These things have been revealed to me by the Holy Ghost and that is the way that I know they are true. Cory Barker
dellinge@zinfan.UUCP (Ken Dellinger) (05/02/85)
After reading Ken Arndt's bigoted and erroneous posting of April 30, 1985, I
am so annoyed by his blatant disregard for truth that I must respond. So
here goes. If I make anyone mad, tough beans!
1. You reject the need to ask God for confirmation of the truth of His word
as recorded and interpreted by fallible men. The assumption that the
present Bible has been in its current form since it was passed down by word
of mouth, then written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek and
subsequently, English, is ludicrous! Considering the wide variety of Bible
translations, I suggest that a prudent person will study the Bible he/she
possesses and then turn to God for confirmation of His word.
2. You claim that ``What the Mormans (sic) [I would like to take this
opportunity to point out that your blatant disregard for truth extends to
the simple truths of correct spelling] are really saying is that the Book of
Morman (sic) and the teachings of the Morman (sic) Church that stem from the
`prophet' Smith, supercedes the rest of the Bible. How does one actually
get to KNOW this?''
At no time have either the leaders or the teachings of my church claimed to
``supercede'' the teachings of Christ inasmuch as they are recorded
CORRECTLY in the Bible. The Books of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and
Doctrine & Covenants simply confirm and expand the teachings of the Bible.
Obviously, one gets to KNOW this by studying the scriptures and then asking
God to confirm the truth of what he/she has read. No one can truly possess
a testimony of Christ and His ministry based solely upon the testimony of
others. Your testimony must be based on personal experience, study, prayer
and revelation or it will not withstand the batterings of a Godless world.
Just as few rational persons demand that you accept the word of an
``authority'' without confirmation, so we are exhorted to turn to the Lord
in prayer to receive answers to our questions. To quote a prophet whom you
vilify ``Search the scriptures - search the revelations which we publish,
and ask your Heavenly Father, in the names of His Son Jesus Christ, to
manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His
glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit.
You will then know for yourselves and not for another. You will not then be
dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for
speculation.''
3. ``But lo there are mucho Morman (sic) groups that don't speak to each
other as well. Golly.''
There is one and only one Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also
nicknamed Mormon or LDS). To say that any splinter groups are also Mormons
is akin to claiming that all Baptists are really Catholics.
4. ``Prayer about what, obedience to what, study of what?''
Study of the scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants,
Pearl of Great Price), and all continuing revelation as revealed by the
current prophet, Spencer W. Kimball.
Obedience to the teachings and commandments of God the Father and His son
Jesus Christ.
Prayer to God the Father and Jesus Christ to ask for confirmation or
revelation of truths; to seek guidance in ALL aspects of life; and to thank
God and Christ for our many blessings.
5. ``Either God speaks and one can repeat it or not.''
Certainly God and Christ speak to those who listen. But all people, unless
they are chosen and ordained by God as prophets, receive revelation ONLY for
themselves and their immediate families, not for the whole of mankind. The
choice of whether or not to share or repeat personal revelation, is of
course up to the individual.
6. ``No I work with Mormans (sic). They are swell people. I like them a
lot . . . . But they are wrong about God! And cursed for it!''
This sounds remarkably like the rationalizations Christians have used for
centuries to justify their unChristian treatment of other people. For
example, the never-ending and unjust persecution of the Jews has throughout
history been prefaced by similar remarks. Not to mention the American
treatment of the native Indians, blacks, American Japanese and German
descendants during WWII, Hispanics, etc, and the world-wide mistreatment of
other minorities. All prefaced by words which contain little of ``charity,
the pure love of Christ.'' (Moroni 7:47, I Corinthians 13).
7. ``Christ says, `I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of
this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues
described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of
prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the trea of life and in
the holy city.' (Rev. 22: 18-19)''
My Revelations 22: 18-19 actually reads ``For I testify unto every man that
heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto
these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this
book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy
city, and from the things which are written in this book.''
First, this book is written by the Apostle John. It is a record of the
revelations he received from Christ. It is John who is actually writing
these words. Second, according to Bible scholars, this revelation was
written sometime between A.D. 64 and 96. John himself wrote another book, The
Gospel According to St. John, much later. Third, at that time the books of
the Bible were not compiled in the same order that they are in the current
Bibles. Therefore, John was obviously warning against anyone adding to or
subtracting from the revelations he had received and written while banished
upon the Isle of Patmos. This does not prevent God from adding to
revelation any time he pleases!
Furthermore, in the Gospel According to St. Matthew, Matthew refers to Jesus
as a Nazarene, or a native of Nazareth (Matthew 2:23). He further says that
this is a fulfillment of an earlier prediction. However, no such saying of
the prophets is found in any of the books contained in the Bible, which
suggests that some scripture has been lost. You might be interested to note
that there are many books of scripture mentioned in the Bible which we do
not currently have. Including the following: The Book of the Covenant
(Exo. 24:7); Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numb. 21:14); Book of Jasher
(Josh. 10:13); Book of the Statutes (I Sam. 10:25); Book of Enoch (Jude 14);
Book of the Acts of Solomon (I Kings 11:41); Book of Nathan the Prophet and
Gad the Seer (I Chron. 29:29); Books of Ahijah the Shilonite and the Visions
of Iddo the Seer (2 Chron. 9:29); Book of Shemaiah (2 Chron. 12:15); Story
of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chron. 13:22); Book of Jehu (2 Chron. 20: 34); the
Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah the son of Amoz (2 Chron. 26:22); Sayings of the
Seers (2 Chron. 33:19); a missing epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (I
Cor. 5:9) a missing epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); a missing epistle
to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16); a missing epistle of
Jude (Jude 3).
Finally, may I direct your attention to Deuteronomy 4:2, which reads ``Ye
shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish
ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which
I command you.''
Are you ready to reject all the books of the Bible which follow Deuteronomy,
Mr. Arndt?
Tammi Wright
Ken Dellinger
(Both members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)
``And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
``In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey
not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
``Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the
Lord and from the glory of His power.'' (2 Thessalonians 1: 7-9)
--
Ken Dellinger
Digital Equipment Corporation
9570 S.W. Barbur Blvd.
Portland, OR 97219
/ decvax \
anywhere! < > !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-pd750!dellingke
\ ucbvax /
* UNIX is a trademark of A.T.& T.
ULTRIX belongs to us...davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) (05/06/85)
In article <80@zinfan.UUCP> dellinge@zinfan.UUCP (Ken Dellinger) writes: >... You might be interested to note >that there are many books of scripture mentioned in the Bible which we do >not currently have. Including the following: ... > ... ; Book of Enoch (Jude 14); I don't know about the others but the books of Enoch are available and very interesting reading. It seems that the people Jesus spoke to were quite familiar with it. It also philosophically lays much of the groundwork for the NT's (and evidently Jesus's) own view of 'Evil', the phrase 'son of man', future judgement, the resurrection and the Messianic Kingdom. It is must reading (in my opinion) for anyone interested in the study of Christian origins. I ordered my copy from Dover publications, printed by Hollen Street Press Ltd. at Slough (London?) It is an old translation (1917) but has an interesting forward by some scholars as well. Dave Trissel {ihnp4,seismo,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet