david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (05/10/85)
Reply to a reply
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>From: berger@aecom.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Jews, Christians, and Mormons
Message-ID: <1537@aecom.UUCP>
Date: 7 May 85 15:55:33 GMT
I've been watching the recent attacks on the Mormon faith. I don't
understand one thing... What's the difference between what the Christians
did the the OT, and what the Mormons did to the NT?
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I wish these attacks against the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses,
and others would stop, even if I would disagree with them. This does no
good; it will not 'save' them, neither will it save us. We should watch
out for ourselves what we do in our everyday lives.
Jesus did plainly summarized the Law: To love God with all
one's heart and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself.
And then he answered "Who are my neighbors?" with the example of the
Samaritan who helped the helpless stranger. The meaning of this is
two-fold: everyone you meet is your neighbor (in fact, the spheres of
existence of everyone are 'neighboring', if indirectly and even if it
is not appreciated); besides this, while Jesus acknowledged that the
Jews were 'right' about religion, nevertheless what counted was that
the Samaritan, one despised by them and 'wrong' about religion, was
right with God in recognizing and helping his 'neighbor'.
So, which would you have -- that you would be 'right' about
beliefs, nevertheless wrong against man, therefore against God -- or
would you be 'wrong' about beliefs, as was the despised Samaritan, who
was nevertheless right with his fellow, as would be God.
Jesus teaches that God accepts the man who does recognize and
help his 'neighbor', even if he is mistaken in his theology.
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...
...
...
I now expect you to present me with some argument stating that I'm now
better, for I don't sacrifice animals in the temple.
1- We are discussing Christianity's claims, not modern Jewry's.
2- If we would know where on the temple mount to build it, and it were built,
I would be there in 28 days for Shavuot.
Similarly, may tzitzith aren't colored with t'cheleth, for I have no idea
what t'cheleth is. If you can identify it, I'll provide the thread. And so
on...
I would say therefor Ken, that you are in no position to
throw stones at the Mormons, until you can prove to me that you don't live in
a glass house.
--
Micha Berger
2525 Amsterdam Ave. Suite M406 NY, NY 10033 (212) 781-0756
{philabs|cucard|pegasus|rocky2}!aecom!berger
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As for where is to be built the temple -- this 'high place', nearest
the heavens, is of course already well known. Therein are the 'inner
rooms' and all the furnishings -- the lights, the bread, the Ark containing
the two tablets, between the two cherubim, and the altar where our sacrifice
is made for ourselves and others.
But as to the sacrifice I would make, I remember the sacrifice
of the Samaritan above, who was merciful to his 'neighbor'. As it is written,
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Therefore, it is our hearts which are to be indeed the Seat of Mercy,
of the One who is Merciful.
As the Lord said, "The heavens are mine, and the Earth is my footstool
-- all these things I have made are mine -- then, where shall you build my
temple?" And He answers, "I look upon the one who is humble and contrite in
spirit, and who trembles at my word." So there is the Temple of the Lord.
I would agree that we should not go around throwing stones.
David Harwoodix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (05/15/85)
In article <415@cvl.UUCP>, david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) writes: > I wish these attacks against the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, > and others would stop, even if I would disagree with them. This does no > good; it will not 'save' them, neither will it save us. We should watch > out for ourselves what we do in our everyday lives. I disagree completely. It is essentially necessary to point out various flaws in the reasoning and assumptions of anything, religion included. If instruction doesn't come through presentation of information then how does it? If I can show that the Jehovah's Witnesses have blatantly mistranslated the original texts, why should I allow them to think that their translation is a "more accurate" one? > While Jesus acknowledged that the Jews were 'right' about religion What? Jesus said nothing of the sort. He continually accused the Jews (the Pharisees and Saducees mainly) of being hypocrites and sons of the devil. He said they were blind leading the blind. (John 8:44) > So, which would you have -- that you would be 'right' about > beliefs, nevertheless wrong against man, therefore against God -- or > would you be 'wrong' about beliefs, as was the despised Samaritan, who > was nevertheless right with his fellow, as would be God. > Jesus teaches that God accepts the man who does recognize and > help his 'neighbor', even if he is mistaken in his theology. That's what Jesus taught? No way. Christ clearly says in John 15:5, "I am the vine, you are the branch; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." Christ says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me." Not by good works and mistaken theology, but by the atoning death of Jesus Christ. Christ makes it perfectly clear in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever should *BELIEVE* in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Where do you see in this that what you believe is not important? > But as to the sacrifice I would make, I remember the sacrifice > of the Samaritan above, who was merciful to his 'neighbor'. As it is written, > 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' Paul makes it very clear what is to be sacrificed. "For I beseach you therefor brethren, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God which is your spiritual service of worship." (Romans 12:1) > Therefore, it is our hearts which are to be indeed the Seat of Mercy, > of the One who is Merciful. > As the Lord said, "The heavens are mine, and the Earth is my footstool > -- all these things I have made are mine -- then, where shall you build my > temple?" And He answers, "I look upon the one who is humble and contrite in > spirit, and who trembles at my word." So there is the Temple of the Lord. I couldn't agree more. Paul says in I Corinthians 3:16, "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" But you seem to think that means something different than what the Bible teaches. Christ very clearly did not teach a gospel of 'good works' and he warned specifically (Mathew 7:22) that people would come to Him at the end times and list off all of their good deeds. Christ's response is simple and to the point. "And I will declare to them I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS." Rick Frey (.. ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix415)
mat@mtx5b.UUCP (Mark Terribile) (05/18/85)
>> While Jesus acknowledged that the Jews were 'right' about religion > >What? Jesus said nothing of the sort. He continually accused the Jews >(the Pharisees and Saducees mainly) of being hypocrites and sons of the >devil. He said they were blind leading the blind. (John 8:44) Jess also followed the Law as set forth in the Torah, while urging us to a higher standard. And the Lord's Prayer is a typically Jewish prayer. If Jesus did not believe that the things that the Law of Moses teaches are important, why did He tell us to pray in that manner, and for those things? >> Jesus teaches that God accepts the man who does recognize and >> help his 'neighbor', even if he is mistaken in his theology. > >That's what Jesus taught? No way. Christ clearly says in John 15:5, "I >am the vine, you are the branch; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he >bears much fruit; for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." Remember that first Jesus told us to love God completely, and then to love our neighbor as ourself. These are the essential commandments. The Good Samaritan is mistaken in his flawed theology, but in loving his neighbor he has followed God's requirements. ``he who abides in Me and I in him ..." ... what does this mean? Does it mean the most complete theology, the best learning? Or does it mean the taking of God's Law and His will into our hearts? Remember when Jesus and the disciples came across a man casting out devils in Jesus' name? The disciples sought to silence the fellow. Jesus told them not to, because the man was doing good works in the name of God. > Christ says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man > comes to the Father but by Me." Not by good works and mistaken theology, > but by the atoning death of Jesus Christ. Christ makes it perfectly clear > in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son > that whosoever should *BELIEVE* in Him should not perish but have everlasting > life." Where do you see in this that what you believe is not important? > But is it necessary that those for whom the sacrifice is offered should know of it? Haven't you prayed for someone, and not told them? Wouldn't you be blowing a trumpet for yourself if you did? But keeping the prayer between yourself and God doesn't diminsish its value, does it? Remember, John was writing for the Greeks, for whom knowledge and logical principle were all important. That is why John begins ``In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and ...''. >> -- all these things I have made are mine -- then, where shall you build my >> temple?" And He answers, "I look upon the one who is humble and contrite in >> spirit, and who trembles at my word." So there is the Temple of the Lord. > Christ very clearly did not teach a gospel of 'good works' and he warned > specifically (Mathew 7:22) that people would come to Him at the end times > and list off all of their good deeds. Christ's response is simple and to > the point. "And I will declare to them I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, > YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS." As usual, I am in the office waiting on a Make while netnewsing, and I'm at work, with no references here, but I seem to recall that this passage also talks about how the important works are the corporal works of mercy, about how when we see someone starving or naked it is really Christ whom we must see in that way. The strict warning is that simply doing good things is not enough ... the fear of punishment or the knowledge that this is your duty is not enough. The right thing must be done for the right reason: the love of God and of the fellow that God has placed you here with. Getting tied up with the idea that knowledge is Salvation can lead you off to gnosticism. Getting tied up with the idea that all you need to do is get enough good deed points on your scorecard will lead you in the direction of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned. You must have the right reasons, and then you must act on them. Knowledge will avail you nothing ... in fact it inreases your obligation. ``Much will be demanded of him to whom much has been given.'' -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) mtx5b!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (05/24/85)
In article <1417@mtx5b.UUCP>, mat@mtx5b.UUCP (Mark Terribile) writes: > > Jesus also followed the Law as set forth in the Torah, while urging us to > a higher standard. And the Lord's Prayer is a typically Jewish prayer. > If Jesus did not believe that the things that the Law of Moses teaches are > important, why did He tell us to pray in that manner, and for those things? > I blew it by deleting what I had originally written, but I said that Jesus denounced the Pharisees and Micha Berger said that Jesus said that they were right about religion. I'm not denying or saying in any way that the law given by God is to be followed (as it applies i.e. kosher laws etc.) but that has nothing to do with the Pharisees who even though they had the law, they practiced only the parts of it that they chose. Christ should tell us to pray in that manner and Christ did explain the "true" nature of the Bible, but that doesn't in any way condone the religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees. RF:That's what Jesus taught? No way. Christ clearly says in John 15:5, "I RF:am the vine, you are the branch; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he RF:bears much fruit; for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." > > Remember that first Jesus told us to love God completely, and then to love > our neighbor as ourself. These are the essential commandments. The Good > Samaritan is mistaken in his flawed theology, but in loving his neighbor > he has followed God's requirements. > I don't want to ever say that I disagree with the great commandments, but you are oversimplifying what Christ said. Christ also went on to make God's requirement very clear, "For this is the will of my Father, that every one who beholds the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM may have eternal life." (John 6:40) > Remember when Jesus and the disciples came across a man casting out devils > in Jesus' name? The disciples sought to silence the fellow. Jesus told them > not to, because the man was doing good works in the name of God. > But then you have to go back to the example in Mathew 7 where people came up to Jesus saying how they had performed miracles and cast out demons in His name and He tells them to go away. The context doesn't allow escape into good works by supposedly emphasizing the more essential characteristics of charity and love, it has been talking about good vs. bad fruit but then it culminates in this analogy which makes the point that works alone do not make up one's service to God. > > But is it necessary that those for whom the sacrifice is offered should know > of it? Haven't you prayed for someone, and not told them? Wouldn't you be > blowing a trumpet for yourself if you did? But keeping the prayer between > yourself and God doesn't diminsish its value, does it? > Back in John 6:40 Christ says that everyone who beholds the Son must believe in Him. In John 3:18-19 Christ says that the judgement of mankind will be based upon their acceptance of Him. ("He who does not believe in Him has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And to make this point even clearer, Paul, in Romans 1:14-25 gives a lengthy disourse on what we as people already know and what we will be held accountable for. Paul says those who have not had the law will not be judged by the law, but to those who have had the law (or the witness of Jesus Christ) they will be judged upon what they know. > > Getting tied up with the idea that knowledge is Salvation can lead you off > to gnosticism. Getting tied up with the idea that all you need to do is > get enough good deed points on your scorecard will lead you in the direction > of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned. You must have the right reasons, and > then you must act on them. Knowledge will avail you nothing ... in fact it > inreases your obligation. ``Much will be demanded of him to whom much has > been given.'' True to an extent. Knowledge alone is worthless; the Bible says that even the demons believe and they shudder. But then to say that leaves every good Samaritan on God's good side is equally as wrong. Christianity isn't a case of what you do, it's a case of who you know. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) While I completely agree that knowledge alone is not the route, works, even with "good intentions" (as the people in Mathew 7) are not the way either. I quoted it once, but the Bible says that this is the answer to eternal life. "I am the way, the truth and the life, NO MAN comes to the Father but by ME." Rick Frey (..ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix415)