arndt@lymph.DEC (05/03/85)
Ok let's do this over again. A few comments.
o So I misspelled Mormon. It's no news that I can't spell!
Sometimes it's a missed finger on the keys but more often it's my being
a victim of Public Schools and a speed spelling course. Yea for your side.
o We EACH believe the other wrong - and are SAYING so out loud!
In some people's minds that's naughty. Talking about someone's beliefs.
I don't think so. I'm not calling you names per se, just telling you what
I believe the Bible, the Christian belief and logic, clearly say about your
position. Blame them. One must notice you say I am wrong, right? Some of
my best friends and coworkers it just so happens are Mormons, of course I
wouldn't want my sister to . . . . They're not horrible people, just wrong
in their beliefs and evil in the sense that they, to use Paul's language,
turn the truth of God into a lie. What does Brother Smith say about me, eh?
o Sorry for the length.
************************
Subject: Re: Pickin' bones with Mormans (sic)
Posted: Wed May 1 22:17:37 1985
[Tammi Wright and Ken Dellinger say]
After reading Ken Arndt's bigoted and erroneous posting of April 30, 1985, I
am so annoyed by his blatant disregard for truth that I must respond. So
here goes. If I make anyone mad, tough beans!
****** You certainly don't make ME mad. I always knew that
you didn't believe I was in the 'light' vis a vis religious truth. Does it
come as a 'shock' to you that I believe YOU are wrong?? As for bigoted and
erroneous, well if thinking and saying you are in error is bigoted in your
eyes, so be it. We'll certainly find out in the end, eh? But why are YOU
so upset??? If I've misrepresented your beliefs correct me. But if we can
identify where we disagree and work with that, let's.
1. You reject the need to ask God for confirmation of the truth of His word
as recorded and interpreted by fallible men. The assumption that the
present Bible has been in its current form since it was passed down by word
of mouth, then written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek and
subsequently, English, is ludicrous! Considering the wide variety of Bible
translations, I suggest that a prudent person will study the Bible he/she
possesses and then turn to God for confirmation of His word.
***** Look Tammi and Ken, I don't doubt your sincerity in
the beliefs you profess - I just believe you are wrong in your understanding
both of HOW one comes to a belief (asking God for guidance in a mystical way
that contradicts what God has said and the way man is) and in WHAT the bible
and the Christian faith are all about. As for your facile statement about the
passing down of scripture (the changes in it, etc.) it doesn't stand up in
light of what we know about the process. Far from being 'ludicrous' we have
texts almost a thousand years apart and lo! they are the same in meaning per
the scholars who have examined them. I refer of course to the Dead Sea Scrolls
which are complete copies of texts. "The wide variety of Bible translations"
is silly in the extreme as a reason to turn mystical about 'conformation'
of what the Bible says. Words here and there change and even in the EARLIEST
of the texts there are words not understood (like 'snake' and 'fruit' in the
Genesis recounting of the creation) BUT THE TEXT ITSELF, WHILE TRANSLATED
MANY TIMES HAS NOT CHANGED!!! Now Christians have and still do discuss
the MEANING of some of the doctrines (Catholic vs Baptist, etc.) but NONE
OF THE CHRISTIAN GROUPS MAKE THE CLAIMS ABOUT GOD THAT YOU MORMONS
DO - THE FACT THAT GOD WAS ONCE A MAN, JESUS IS NOT THE INCARNATION OF
GOD HIMSELF, etc. Not to mention all the little doctrines the Mormons
hold to that make them a CULT and not a part of Christianity dispite
their claims.
[you say]
2. You claim that ``What the Mormans are really saying is that the Book of
Morman (sic) and the teachings of the Morman (sic) Church that stem from the
`prophet' Smith, supercedes the rest of the Bible. How does one actually
get to KNOW this?''
At no time have either the leaders or the teachings of my church claimed to
``supercede'' the teachings of Christ inasmuch as they are recorded
CORRECTLY in the Bible. The Books of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and
Doctrine & Covenants simply confirm and expand the teachings of the Bible.
******* Ahhhh. CORRECTLY, eh? There's the rub. If it 'fits'
Brother Smith's views it's correct, right? If it doesn't, well then . . . .
The Mormon books you mention simply CONTRADICT the teachings of the Bible!
Which is why you people are under God's curse! Not mine you understand.
You don't like the word 'supercede', ok, but you use the Mormon books to
interprete the bible surely.
[you say]
Obviously, one gets to KNOW this by studying the scriptures and then asking
God to confirm the truth of what he/she has read. No one can truly possess
a testimony of Christ and His ministry based solely upon the testimony of
others. Your testimony must be based on personal experience, study, prayer
and revelation or it will not withstand the batterings of a Godless world.
****** Claptrap guys! Mormon mumbo jumbo to cover up
the fact that the Bible rejects as cursed the teachings of Brother Smith.
My point again from my first posting is that once one gets 'the word' either
from 'God' in a personal mental telegram from heaven or anywhere else one can
write it down, as the good Brother Smith and the angel Moroni (how come you're
not called Morons??) have done, and then it becomes just like the Bible is!
What IS the 'testimony' you receive from God? Is it propositions, something
that can be stated and therefore written? Or is it a good 'feeling' and how
does one tell one good feeling from another and how does a good feeling bear
upon propositions (the bible)? "It's true because I feel good about it", is
mumbo jumbo!
THE TEST FOR TRUTH THAT IS STATED IN PROPOSITIONS IS
DOES IT CONFORM TO THE RULE OF LOGIC OR NOT. DOES IT PLAY.
ONCE GIVEN HOW DO YOU 'GUARD' IT FROM CORRUPTION? SURPRISE.
YOU SEE IF WHAT IS OFFERED, EITHER FROM AN ANGEL OR BROTHER
SMITH AGREES WITH THE TRUTH ALREADY GIVEN, ASSUMING IT REALLY
WAS THE TRUTH AND THAT TRUTH IS TRUTH, YOU SEE?
Gee, the angel Moroni doesn't agree with the Bible. Must be,
let's see, the bible can't be accurate orrrr, I got it, we
need a personal telegram - after much prayer and study of course -
from God to 'testify' to us that what Moroni gave us is true.
How could we tell if Moroni were actually from the Devil - as
I believe he was? What's the 'testimony'???
THE WHOLE IDEA OF 'TESTIMONY' AS USED BY MORMONS IS BUNK!
MYSTICAL GARBAGE AT ODDS WITH THE WAY WE THINK AND HOW GOD
HAS REVEALED HIMSELF TO MAN. We don't arrive at propositions
(scripture) by non-mental (read non-logical) . . . what?, you can't
call it communication - noise perhaps?
GOD DOES NOT 'CONFIRM' THE TRUTH TO EACH OF US. HE PRESENTS
THE TRUTH TO US IN SCRIPTURE (PROPOSITIONS) AND WE MAKE UP
OUR MINDS TO BELIEVE IT OR NOT - JUST LIKE THE SHOW! THEN WE
LIVE BY IT AND IN THAT SENSE AS WELL AS REASON TEST IT IN THE
LIVING OF IT TO SEE IF IT GIVES ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS ABOUT
LIFE. The example I have given in the past is of a naturalist
who believes it's all just a chemical milk shake and then tries
to love his wife or children. Or wants to see them not die or
feel pain. Or have his relationships somehow have trancendent
MEANING. Very hard to do and be consistent.
[you say]
Just as few rational persons demand that you accept the word of an
``authority'' without confirmation, so we are exhorted to turn to the Lord
in prayer to receive answers to our questions. To quote a prophet whom you
vilify ``Search the scriptures - search the revelations which we publish,
and ask your Heavenly Father, in the names of His Son Jesus Christ, to
manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His
glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit.
You will then know for yourselves and not for another. You will not then be
dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for
speculation.''
***** Agree that we need 'confirmation. But again, what
form does this 'confirmation' take in the Mormon view? I don't vilify the
good Brother Smith, I'm as human as he was - GOD says he rots!!! IN HELL!
And his followers with him, eh? Those who reject Christ as who he claimed
to be - God incarnate. But then how could one be a Mormon and accept Christ's
claims about himself and as the only way back to God? You have to be a
Mormon to be on the 'inside', right? Listen, Paul spoke of you guys long
ago. Your doctrines are even nothing new as you seem to think.
[you say - quoting me]
3. ``But lo there are mucho Morman (sic) groups that don't speak to each
other as well. Golly.''
There is one and only one Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also
nicknamed Mormon or LDS). To say that any splinter groups are also Mormons
is akin to claiming that all Baptists are really Catholics.
***** Nonsense. At least you realize that there are
'splinter' groups. Strange, nobody here but us Mormons. You only confirm
what I said. You don't like each other. They'd be saying the same thing
about you while claiming to come from the good Brother Smith's 'revelations'.
What I would like to point out again is that while Baptists and the RC's
disagree over many things they do not agree with the good Brother Smith's
'revelations'. Please note that also means the good Brother Smith doesn't
(didn't) agree with them! He roundly called them out as I recall, right?
A few names, etc. There IS a common core around which the various Christian
groups revolve and outside of which one is NOT a Christian by any stretch of
the imagination. You Mormons are outside the core! Along with the JW's
and other assorted cargo cults.
OH DEAR, WHAT'S THAT? HE THINKS OTHER PEOPLE ARE WRONG??
I know, the modern equivalent of sin. Believing in a
position that says others are wrong, really wrong.
Especially about someone's religion.
[you say quoting me]
4. ``Prayer about what, obedience to what, study of what?''
Study of the scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants,
Pearl of Great Price), and all continuing revelation as revealed by the
current prophet, Spencer W. Kimball.
****** Unless the 'continuing revelation' CONTRADICTS
either itself or what has been given before! While we're at it what about
the 'golden tablets' found recently in the New York Museum of Science, you
know, the tablets Brother Smith used to copy from? Turned out to be from
the Egyptian Book of the Dead and a top Egyptian scholar who was a Mormon
sent to look them over left the church because of the fraud. I know, a
red herring. But look it up in the records. Might be interesting. I'm
sure the Mormon Church had an interesting comment on the event.
[you say]
Obedience to the teachings and commandments of God the Father and His son
Jesus Christ.
Prayer to God the Father and Jesus Christ to ask for confirmation or
revelation of truths; to seek guidance in ALL aspects of life; and to thank
God and Christ for our many blessings.
****** Phrases, phrases. Spits in the face of Christ! He
tells you the truth and you lie about it. Sorry, but that's what you ARE
doing. I know you don't think so and are well meaning and nice folks - I'd
trust you with my wallet, more than I can say about some of my better friends.
But you are sincerely wrong. And sincerely evil. Do you think evil has a
nasty face by which we can recognize her (her,get it)? Evil can be lovely.
This paragraph calls for specifics on doctrines and passages of scripture.
I do not now have the time or the books at my disposal but would enjoy going
over some of it with you. At least we could get to the point to agree to
disagree and make our cases plain to each other. Remember, everything I am
saying about you applies to me from your point of view, right? If you think
I'm using strong language you should read what Paul and Christ say about
you which you apply to me - neat huh?
5. ``Either God speaks and one can repeat it or not.''
Certainly God and Christ speak to those who listen. But all people, unless
they are chosen and ordained by God as prophets, receive revelation ONLY for
themselves and their immediate families, not for the whole of mankind. The
choice of whether or not to share or repeat personal revelation, is of
course up to the individual.
***** Posh. More Morman doctrine at odds with scripture.
Christ IS God! The Mormons are chosen, sure sure. Talk about breaking
with what the bible teaches!
[you say quoting me]
6. ``No I work with Mormans (sic). They are swell people. I like them a
lot . . . . But they are wrong about God! And cursed for it!''
This sounds remarkably like the rationalizations Christians have used for
centuries to justify their unChristian treatment of other people. For
example, the never-ending and unjust persecution of the Jews has throughout
history been prefaced by similar remarks. Not to mention the American
treatment of the native Indians, blacks, American Japanese and German
descendants during WWII, Hispanics, etc, and the world-wide mistreatment of
other minorities. All prefaced by words which contain little of ``charity,
the pure love of Christ.'' (Moroni 7:47, I Corinthians 13).
**** Give me a break. Are 'Christians' responsible
for cuts and bruises and upset stomachs as well? Quote 'charity' as well
the rest of scripture, will you. There ARE curses in scripture against
evil men.
[you quote me]
7. ``Christ says, `I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of
this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues
described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of
prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the trea of life and in
the holy city.' (Rev. 22: 18-19)''
My Revelations 22: 18-19 actually reads ``For I testify unto every man that
heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto
these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this
book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy
city, and from the things which are written in this book.''
****** 'Warn' or 'Testify' , sounds like a job of the
Mormon translators or nothing at all. In any case you certainly can't
build a case for 'testify' the way YOU attempt to use it in getting
'conformation' of the truth! That's not what it says even if the word
used is 'testify'. What's the difference? "I warn you . . . or I testify
unto you . . . "????
[you again]
First, this book is written by the Apostle John. It is a record of the
revelations he received from Christ. It is John who is actually writing
these words. Second, according to Bible scholars, this revelation was
written sometime between A.D. 64 and 96. John himself wrote another book, The
Gospel According to St. John, much later. Third, at that time the books of
the Bible were not compiled in the same order that they are in the current
Bibles. Therefore, John was obviously warning against anyone adding to or
subtracting from the revelations he had received and written while banished
upon the Isle of Patmos. This does not prevent God from adding to
revelation any time he pleases!
Furthermore, in the Gospel According to St. Matthew, Matthew refers to Jesus
as a Nazarene, or a native of Nazareth (Matthew 2:23). He further says that
this is a fulfillment of an earlier prediction. However, no such saying of
the prophets is found in any of the books contained in the Bible, which
suggests that some scripture has been lost. You might be interested to note
that there are many books of scripture mentioned in the Bible which we do
not currently have. Including the following: The Book of the Covenant
(Exo. 24:7); Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numb. 21:14); Book of Jasher
(Josh. 10:13); Book of the Statutes (I Sam. 10:25); Book of Enoch (Jude 14);
Book of the Acts of Solomon (I Kings 11:41); Book of Nathan the Prophet and
Gad the Seer (I Chron. 29:29); Books of Ahijah the Shilonite and the Visions
of Iddo the Seer (2 Chron. 9:29); Book of Shemaiah (2 Chron. 12:15); Story
of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chron. 13:22); Book of Jehu (2 Chron. 20: 34); the
Acts of Uzziah, by Isaiah the son of Amoz (2 Chron. 26:22); Sayings of the
Seers (2 Chron. 33:19); a missing epistle of Paul to the Corinthians (I
Cor. 5:9) a missing epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); a missing epistle
to the Colossians, written from Laodicea (Col. 4:16); a missing epistle of
Jude (Jude 3).
****** Some of what you write above is true and some
is just plain flapdoodle. Yes, the OT mentions books now lost or thought
to be a part of books we now have but not recognized as separate books.
So what??? What we DO have says SOMETHING! Why don't you read and obey
it? Your NT references to missing books is highly speculative. According
to NT scholars. Again, so what? What's your point? YES GOD HAS ADDED
TO HIS REVELATION, YES YES. BUT HE HAS NOT LIED, CHANGED THE MANNER OF
SALVATION (THROUGH CHRIST) OR CONTRADICTED HIMSELF. Morman salvation is
NOT from the sacrifice of Christ, which they do not recognize since Christ
is not God. They make the life and acts of Christ to be something else
from what they are stated to be in scripture!
[you again]
Finally, may I direct your attention to Deuteronomy 4:2, which reads ``Ye
shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish
ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which
I command you.''
Are you ready to reject all the books of the Bible which follow Deuteronomy,
Mr. Arndt?
****** Of course not, not any more than books written later
than the Revelation of John. See my answer above. God has not changed the
truth!
[from]
Tammi Wright
Ken Dellinger
(Both members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)
``And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
``In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey
not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
``Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the
Lord and from the glory of His power.'' (2 Thessalonians 1: 7-9)
**** Gee, guy and gal, seems these verses all apply to YOU!!!
-- This is all in good fun, right? I mean I'm not going to
get flames from all the Mormans (like the above verses from
you) in the world, am I? Pity a poor Baptist boy.
Warm (not hell fire) Regards,
Ken (Amen) Arndt
berger@aecom.UUCP (Mitchell Berger) (05/07/85)
> 1. You reject the need to ask God for confirmation of the truth of His word > as recorded and interpreted by fallible men. The assumption that the > present Bible has been in its current form since it was passed down by word > of mouth, then written in Hebrew, then translated into Greek and > subsequently, English, is ludicrous! Considering the wide variety of Bible > translations, I suggest that a prudent person will study the Bible he/she > possesses and then turn to God for confirmation of His word. I would suggest reading the Bible in the original Hebrew, if you don't trust translations. Your meathod seams alot iffyer. Also, the bible was never handed down by word of mouth (not the OT at least). The prophets wrote the pooks themselves. It is referred to in the Talmud as "the written law", as opposed to the talmud itself, the mishna, and other similar texts, "the oral law", which was handed down by word of mouth, and are abound with arguements. (see the first mishna, it contains an arguement between the Rabbis and Rabbi Judah.) Who ever said that it was ever handed down as a tradition? -- Micha Berger 2525 Amsterdam Ave. Suite M406 NY, NY 10033 (212) 781-0756 {philabs|cucard|pegasus|rocky2}!aecom!berger
sth@rayssd.UUCP (05/22/85)
I find it funny to find a Christian complaining about Mormons doing exactly
what Christians did ~2000 years ago ...
Steve Hirsch, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccieng5}!rayssd!sth
Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RIdan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) (05/30/85)
In article <749@rayssd.UUCP> sth@rayssd.UUCP writes: > >I find it funny to find a Christian complaining about Mormons doing exactly >what Christians did ~2000 years ago ... > >Steve Hirsch, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccieng5}!rayssd!sth >Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI Could you explain this, please! What exactly are you referring to? This is a serious question. Dan