ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (08/17/85)
Excellent article. Your second paragraph should go down in the annals of Net.religion greats. But while everything you said was correct to an extent, you missed a few points tht the Bible (one of our most reliable sources of information about God??) brings out that throws just a small enough shadow of a doubt to make one re-evaluate the evidence. First just to hit a few points that you brought up, you said that this Damager-God was a destroyer, not a creator and you gave lots of examples of the destructive forces. But if you want to attribute those to this God, why not also give Him the child of Abraham and Sarah, saving the Jews in the desert during the exodus and also during hundreds of battles when they should have gotten their buts kicked, all of the healings and miracles performed by the prophets and by Christ Himself. You might still choose to think that the destruction outweighs the creation part of what we've either seen God do or read of His actions, but He at least isn't wholly destructive. What you said about entropy was interesting, but again missing a crucial Biblical idea. The world around us and many people themselves seem to be on a course for self destruction. You want to blame this fact on this 'entropic concept' that what was created and put in charge of the world by this Damager-God; and I'll grant you that. But the rules to entropy state that a system will remain at a lower level of organization or structure unless directed energy is applied. And that's where the creator God fits back in. He didn't design the world to run without His input, His influence and He surely didn't design people that way either. If you want to blame Him for creating people with a need for Himself in their life, that's another question, but it's His world, and we're His creation, so without Him, yes we are prone to decay. Hope- fully this will lead you to the question of why are things screwed up if all it takes is Him being involved and the answer to my own question is that the Bible says that we have the choice whether or not to allow God to interact with us. I can choose to remove God from my life (as much as a created being can remove itself from it's creator) and disregard how God has set up the world and the way He wants it to run and yes, very simply and emphatically, the result of that will be decay. To grant you some credit and to ask a few questions that I can't answer either, why did God choose to create if He knew that this would be the result and why did He create people such that this would be the road to perfection (i.e. Paul says, "Consider it all joy my brethren when you encounter various trials for the testing of your faith is more precious than gold ..."); why this need for perfection through suffering? One thing that I hold up to that, however, is that He, Himself went through that suffering too, more than I'll ever have to face. I really believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh and since you really didn't state what you believed on that whole area I'll stop there, but the idea again is that for some reason, God chose to create such that there would be the chance for imperfection (or that there would be imperfection) such that the perfecting of it would be an even greater thing. This is the basic stating of an idea proposed by C.S. Lewis in a series of books called the Space Trilogy where Lewis talks about other creations and how fallen humanity fits in with a loving, benevolent God. Sometimes it seems to make sense that the way to mastery or perfection is through hard work but then I get to thinking about why couldn't perfection be attained through ease and luxury? Is there something inherant in perfection that requires sacrifice and suffering? I would say yes in this world (having at one time aspired to being a tennis professional) but why in the whole infinite realm of possibilities that God could have created did God choose perfection through suffering? Is it a by-product of free will? (Rich, don't scream too loudly if you're reading this). In creating something that was not entirely Himself did God, because of that, subject His creation to the imperfection that has to come from not being completely perfect (i.e. completely of God)? And Lewis talks about having saved a fallen race being a greater glory than the race that loved God (with a smaller level of choice) for all of time. This is a Biblical idea in the parable where the man goes to find one lost sheep. The Bible says that there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner repenting than 99 who have been faithful. Does that mean that God wants us to sin so that He can save us? I would say no, but I'm not too sure what I'd offer as to God's reasons for creating us. But if we're at all going to be realistic about an infinite, omnipotent (I'll stop there with the omni's) to think that I could think exactly like Him (it, she, whatever) wouldn't make sense. That doesn't mean I won't use my mind. If God gave it to me than I believe it's there for a purpose and if it truly and honestly denies god, then I've got problems. Anyhow, enough of the philosophical ramblings. I think alot of the conclusions you drew are very similar to the typical father/son relationship. The kid gets mad at the father for not letting him stay out late, not giving him enough money, making him do all the rotten chores and everything bad he can think of. On the outside it appears like a godd, strong, healthy hatred founded on some wicked father figure but on a deepre level the son is working through alot of things it takes to become an adult (I hate the sound of "becoming a man") and the father isn't quite as wicked and evil as he might seem. Not to be overly cruel, but the best way to hit a question is right on the head, even if the person you're trying to answer or talk to will hate or scream at the answer. The Bible says alot about God, but more than anything else, it focuses on one attribute, and the way God demonstrated this attribute to His creation. "For god so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." John 3:16 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:28 Rick Frey