levasseur@morgan.DEC (Ray EMD & S Admin 223-5027) (08/22/85)
I have never posted to tis group before but have been casually reading
it for the past few weeks. I would like to share what I believe God has
become to me. I see a lot of Agnostic as well as Fundamentalist dogma being
passed back and forth across the network.
From the time I was a small boy I was a God Hater; to me he was a big bully
who only punished sinners. There was no love involved from my VERY strict Cath-
olic upbringing. The Nuns were the Marine Corps of the church as far as I was
concerned and continually warned the children of the sure punishment od an
eternal hell for the mischiefous child. This was all back in the early 50's so
I know times have changed a little in the church. The damage done to countless
people by misinformed Catholic clergy back then is legion. Talk to any psycho-
therapist and he can tell stories of the walking wounded; some irreparably
damaged by the programming they recieved as children.
God and I were not on speaking terms until my life reached a crisis point;
my Dad was dieing (we had never been close) and my marriage was falling apart.
I got involved with some Fundamentalist and could only find "Condemnation" for
me in their readings. I obsessively read my Bible every day until I had a break-
down. It took a very compassionate Protestant minister and therapist to help
guide me back to rationality. After I started offloading the deadly burden of
guilt that my upbringing placed on me I was able to view God and Jesus in a tot-
ally different light. in my youth Christ was painted as the "Man of perpetual
sorrows" by my relatives and the church I attended. I grew up believing that
Jesus was God's whipping boy and never understood the relationship between the
Father and the son. Hell! I didn't even know the relationship between my own
father and myself. The minister who gave me pastoral counciling told me to get
to know my father while he was still alive and to reconcile myself with him
while there was still time. This was probably the most emotional time in my
life as I told him I loved him. It also was the best single therapy to release
me from my ambiguous feelings. He left this world knowing that we loved each
other. I was now able to have a more positive relationship with God. The Bible
started taking on new meaning; especially the New Testament. I now believe that
it was God working through Father Michael that got through to me.
A few years back I read a book titled "The Man Nobody Knew" about the life
of Jesus. The book got lost and I cannot remember the author's name. Whoever
the author was must have had a personal relationship with Christ because he
became much more of a real person to me. God came here in the flesh to talk to
us and re-affirm that he was the true Christ. He also came to experience life
as a man with all it's pain and sorrow, but also it's joys. Jesus loved people
and being with them, he wanted them well. I once saw a picture of Christ, clut-
ching at his robe, laughing with tears rolling down his face. Some people took
this as sacrilage but I'de rather believe that he did also laugh with us. My
church painted him up as an eternal sourpuss while here but I see him as diff-
erent.
I gave up praying to saints, the dead and statues in favor of to him direct-
ly. Sometimes my prayers are answered, sometimes not (the answer is no!) When
my prayers are answered I know that it's not coincidence. When I was a kid my
prayers were gimmmee gimmmeee gimmmeee, God doesn't work that way! I don't att-
end any given church on a regular basis, religion has become a personal thing
with me, but when I do it's usually a Protestant church. There seems to be so
much more a sense of Christian community than the more sterile Catholic masses
I grew up with.
I've seen some comments that we're just a natural evolution in the universe
and that God did not create us. If we're the greatest thing there is and were
not created by a much higher power, then we're in a lot of trouble! I now look
around me at the beauty of nature and say to myself, man didn't do this and it
was no accident or fluke! A lot of thought had to be behind the orderliness
of nature and the universe, much more than man can muster up with his little
imagination. I just believe we were put here in our temporary little home and
will be held accountable for how we treat it and each other. We're doing our
best to destroy both. I find the book of Revelations kinda frightening since
a lot of it hits home in today's world; just look at the Mid East. the Holy
land.
I used to put so much stock in material things and the word of other men.
I'm starting to put much less faith in the material world; people lie, cheat,
and steal while smiling to your face. I can see more now how imperfect we all
are. Our manmade machinery wears out and rusts, our structures fall victim to
the whims of nature, floods, earthquakes, etc. In some way it's God's way of
reminding us, "Hey Kiddies, that's not all there is. Earth ain't forever so
you'de better start acknowledging the source of all these temporary gifts and
give thanks while you can".
As fa as money goes, don't get me wrong, I enjoy the rewards that my salary
brings in but that's not all there is. As I grow older I see more and more
greed. Everything boils down to profit margins and people are expendable as far
as the almighty dollar goes; it really makes me sick!" I'de rather not be a rich
man but appreciate the little that I have. The world to me seems to be getting
more and more disordered as we become more self centered as people. I'm only
38 and have seen less and less altruistic acts than when I was younger. I may
be wrong.
Finally on the glory of God. When I was young I was instructed to pray for
anything for God's greater glory as well as my own benefit. I never understood
what it meant to me until a few years ago. We're all given natural gifts which
we can either develope or let atrophy. Someone who becomes a great composer,
artist, healer or any other positive contributor tomankind also magnifies God's
glory; we make him look good and don't even realize it. Our greatness is only an
outgrowth of God's. Should I thank man for a new miracle vaccine; no! The real
thanks should do to God for putting this person here and giving him the talent
needed to do the research. One gift (although sometimes misused) which I find
myself thanking the Lord for giving us a lot is music. It's one of the nicest
common languages we can all share. Just some thoughts I've been meaning to
share.
Yeah I'm a sinner and ain't perfect
and I ain't bragging about it.
Rayhomeier@aero.ARPA (Peter Homeier) (08/27/85)
In article <88@decwrl.UUCP> levasseur@morgan.DEC (Ray EMD & S Admin 223-5027) writes: > I have never posted to tis group before but have been casually reading >it for the past few weeks. I would like to share what I believe God has >become to me. Ray then went on to describe his childhood apart from God, the crisis with his father dying, and the breakdown and recovery he experienced. He then shared with us from his heart things that he had come to out of all of his sufferring. I just felt that this was one of the most heartwarming and open-hearted letters I have read on this board. It reminded me that some of the most appealing things we can say are just what has happened to us, and how in our personal experience God has touched us. In this spirit, I would like to invite the Christians listening here to contribute their individual stories, of how they were saved, or rededicated their lives, or were filled with the Spirit. I would suggest describing the experience mostly, although of course it's fine to state the truths that became foundations in your life. For some people it was a very quiet thing, and for others it was a dramatic moment. But each one has a vitally important story to tell, because it was that way that the Lord Jesus chose to reveal Himself to you, and we can all profit by your sharing. To start things off, I'd like to describe the night that changed my life. I believe that I was a Christian from a very early age, although I cannot point to a specific moment of decision. But it was a very distant thing for me. I believed that there was a God and that He loved me, but I didn't understand exactly who Jesus was, or why He came, but I did love Him. I would call myself a "nominal" Christian at that time, having salvation but not much more, certainly not very interested in God and religion, but nevertheless having a certain hunger for righteousness and truth, which in me expressed itself as a delight in mathematics as a kind of "absolute" truth. I was very skeptical, even cynically suspicious, of those "fundamentalist, Bible-thumping folk trying to scare everyone with stories about Hellfire". I didn't go to church, although I did think that it was probably a good thing. But I was scared of people using the position of religiosity to impose their own man-made thoughts on me. I trusted God, but certainly not men. Actually, I still think that way a lot, having seen both trustworthy men and untrustworthy men, but the difference is that I have found out that you can't live without trusting people to some degree. I believed that the Bible was true, but I had never read beyond Genesis and Exodus very far (I always thought that you were supposed to start at the beginning! and so I never got to the New Testament). I went to CalTech as an undergraduate in 1974, and heard about a Christian fellowship of students there that some of my friends (and my roommate) belonged to. I was suspicious of their motives, and did not go. However, I couldn't help comparing the Christians I knew with the other non-Christians on campus. I saw the Christians at least trying to love people, however ineptly, whereas the non-Christians really didn't care at all. In September 1975, just after the beginning of my sophmore year, a couple of friends of mine came into my dorm room one evening as I was studying. One was my roommate, and the other another Christian I knew. We began to talk about God, and the conversation developed in all kinds of delightful ways as we talked about the Spirit of God, and how He was working in the lives of people today in miraculous ways. They told me about things that I had never heard of, about a baptism in the Spirit, and about miracles of healing, and speaking in other tongues which the speaker did not understand. I was amazed and super interested. After about two hours, the fellows asked me if I was interested in having them pray for me to receive this Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Having known these guys personally, I knew they weren't fooling me, and I just said, "Sure!" If there was something more to God than what I had experienced, I wanted it. They laid their hands on me and we all began to pray. As we prayed, I heard one of the guys begin to speak in another language, and a shiver went down my back. I knew that he didn't know that language, but he was speaking in it fluently. As we continued to pray, I began to feel something inside me, like a warmth in my chest. It grew and grew in intensity, and became more and more powerful, until it was like I was sitting under an invisible waterfall, where all of these hundreds and thousands of gallons of water were splashing down upon me. But instead of splashing around me, it was like it was washing right THROUGH me, inside my head, through my chest, down my legs and out! And instead of water, it was something indescribable, sort of like light, and joy, and peace, and laughter. The best word I can find to describe it is just pure glory. And this glory was washing down through me and through me and I was laughing and crying and I didn't know what on earth was happening to me. After a while the sensation lessened, and it gradually grew less, and faded away. But I was grinning for three days afterwards! If you think that that is an exaggeration, write me and I'll give you the arpanet address of my roommate, who was there that night. I was just walking around with this silly grin on my face. I had been touched by a God who I hadn't known could touch people today. After this I thought, "Boy, there is something REAL here, which I didn't know about before. This was no invention of a man, this happened to ME. And I know I didn't make it up." So I started trying to find out what had happened. It was sort of like I had been feeling my way blindly through a thick fog at night, when suddenly I had brushed up against something hard and solid, something solid you could cling to. I started going to that Christian fellowship on campus, started reading my Bible, started going to church, and learning to love God. It didn't happen overnight, there were plenty of times I said "No!" but God was patient and He always waited for me. I started discovering just what people had meant when they had talked about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I became aware of His presence, and learned to share all of my life with Him. And the result was that I gave my life to Jesus. I learned to acknowledge and confess my sins, and accept the free forgiveness. I learned how that forgiveness was purchased at Calvary. And I learned about the Holy Spirit and what that baptism that I had experienced meant. Now it's been almost ten years since that night of glory. I have gone through some incredible experiences and some horrible calamities since then, but Jesus has never left me, even in the darkest hour. I have learned and grown a lot in Him, but what it all comes down to, in the end, is just "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." That's what happened to me. What was it like for you? In Jesus's name, Peter Homeier ARPANET: homeier@aerospace
on@hpda.UUCP (Owen Rowley) (09/04/85)
In a recent posting aero!homeier writes >I just felt that this was one of the most heartwarming and open-hearted >letters I have read on this board. It reminded me that some of the most >appealing things we can say are just what has happened to us, and how in our >personal experience God has touched us. In this spirit, I would like to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >invite the Christians listening here to contribute their individual stories, ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ >of how they were saved, or rededicated their lives, or were filled with the >Spirit. I would suggest describing the experience mostly, although of >course it's fine to state the truths that became foundations in your life. >For some people it was a very quiet thing, and for others it was a dramatic >moment. But each one has a vitally important story to tell, because it was >that way that the Lord Jesus chose to reveal Himself to you, and we can all >profit by your sharing. To start things off, I'd like to describe the night >that changed my life. While it is true that this newsgroup is open for anyone to post their individual stories of spiritual discovery, I would like to point out that there IS a net.religion.christian and a net.religion.jewish, and that there has been some controversy in the past about excessive evangelising in this newsgroup by Zealous xtians. Inviting "all christians" to bombard this newsgroup with their personal stories is like inviting all the neighborhood kids in to play in someone elses pool. If there is anything more annoying than zealous true believers who feel mandated to testify about their brand of revealed dogma whether anyone wants to hear it or not then I don't know what it is. Why is it that its almost always Fundamentalist Xtian types who persist in this brand of psychic attack >I went to CalTech as an undergraduate in 1974, and heard about a Christian >fellowship of students there that some of my friends (and my roommate) >belonged to. I was suspicious of their motives, and did not go. >However, I couldn't help comparing the Christians I knew with the other >non-Christians on campus. I saw the Christians at least trying to love >people, however ineptly, whereas the non-Christians really didn't care at >all. First of all, you are dividing people up into two categories here, the "christians" (it really sounds like you mean the "born again varietyof these) and the "non-christians" (here it sounds like your saying if your not a born-again then your not a christian). You equate the evangelistic model with loving and every one else with not caring, I find it hard to take that it could be as simple as this. what you refer to as inept attempts at "loving" people I see as patronising and meddlesome behavior that infringes on my right to think for myself . I have had it up to my crown chakra with smug xtians who insist that if I don't live up to the code of their holy book then I will be held accountable by their God. It is admirable to believe deeply in the religious system of your choice , it is the height of ignorance to demand that everyone else believe as you do. I see the christian experience as a gigantic energy rip-off, guilt is heaped on the unsupecting believer by declaring that certain actions are sins (you don't need to make a sin out of things that people don't want to do) reinforcing a belief that human nature is inherently evil, and then provide an exit from the inevitable punishment that is threatened by letting you purchase your way out with your devotion or your cash or both. Now thats how I feel about it but I don't expect anybody else to accept my words as anything other than my opinion. (after a detailed account of your experience with your christian friends) >After this I thought, "Boy, there is something REAL here, which I didn't know >about before. This was no invention of a man, this happened to ME. And I know >I didn't make it up." So I started trying to find out what had happened. It Every ones deep spiritual experiences are sacred , and leave the individual with the impression you describe above. This is the backbone of ALL mystical experience... direct knowledge, direct energy current. The Shaman, the yogi the priest, the Monk All know what your talking about here, and christianity has begun to move out of the previous age's cattle car approach to ministry into the direct experience arena with the advent of the charismatic movement. Intense study of this aspect of spiritual life can and will lead you to "understand what happened" . Please be aware that the experience you describe is not unique , its not even unique to christianity. In fact any accomplished Magician or Hypnotist can take you through the same set of experiences under a multitude of guises. Many religious movements (often branded as cults) use the same methods to gather converts and the de-programming process that is required to break the conditioning that results has been a subject of controversy too lengthy to go into now (though I would love to start a discussion of it at another time) I understand that what you really want is to get out the "Good Word" to the heathen and thereby save them from damnation. The problem with this is that your logic in doing so is a closed loop with no place for points of view that are outside of your own trip. Your story was certainly well told and the elements of spiritual discovery orchestrated by a veritable symphony of testament designed to be inspiring to those who ardently seek solace from doubt and the purgatory of disbelief. However you left no room for the seekers who find their truth on the bank of a different river. I hope this response is recieved as a positive statemnt rather than just *flame* because I want to be clear that every one is entitled to their opinion . LUX.. on ################# ###################################### ###################### # ^ # # Owen Rowley # # # # / \ # # # # \ / # # / \ # # {ucbvax|hplabs}!hpda!on # # -- * -- # # / <@> \ # # # # / \ # # / \ # # # # # # ----------- # # # # Every Man and # # NIL # # "Nothing is TRUE..... # # Every Woman # # CARBORUNDUM # # Everything is PERMISSIBLE" # # Is A STAR # # ILLEGITIMO # # Hassan i Sabah # # Liber AL # ################# ###################################### ######################