pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) (09/09/85)
Rick, You repeatedly claim that I do not offer proof of the existence of God. I find this strange, since you have already mentioned to me that you are a believing Christian. Certainly it is not you I need to offer proof to. However, I will go over again what I have gone over on the Usenet. There are three possibilities for modeling the forces of good and evil. The atheists claim they are both the result of natural forces, and thus not essentially different. The God whorshipers claim that good is the result of the actions of a loving God, while evil is part of the natural flow. Maltheists claim that good is the part which is determined by the natural flow of things, while evil is an interfering entropic force manifested in a malevolent Damager-God. Why do I believe in the third model? Think about this. Men work to build things: homes, farms, machines, families. In doing so, they make use of the forces of nature present as they build. Their work is thwarted by other forces, forces that seem to act not according to law, but according to whim, as if they had a will of their own behind them. (Call it ``anti-nature.'') What does that suggest to you? You say ``there are inherant difficulties in discussing the infinite and the omnipotent.'' Again I say that YOU are building this difficulty into the questions facing us. Who says these concepts apply to God? You do! But why? Rick, you did make the simple statement that ``Jesus Christ WAS God.'' And I showed that that statement is simply an assertion that Christians make, believing what God has told them. Don't you see how His saying ``See? I have become human and suffered just like you.'' is a ruse and a sham? He never did this, He sent ``His son'' (a duped human) to do His dirty work, just like a sleazy movie Mafioso-type might do. Why do you believe God's lies? We don't throw out the Bible, we simply recognize that it was written by God as a coverup document. Sort of like a history of Watergate as written by Richard Nixon. Certainly real events would be discussed, but the perspective would be that of coverup and self-glorification. I'm not sure what you meant in your section about Satan being in charge of Earth during the time following the death of Jesus. Certainly we are witnessing a world with evil in charge. When clergymen claim that this is why the world is filled with evil, they are making excuses for God (who uses the name Satan when visibly engaging in evil to make it seem like it's someone else). What else could you blame Hitler or Manson's abnormalities on? Are you falling for another of God's lies, about the fallenness of man? Is the reason that you ``just flat out refuse'' to admit that the evil done by men is God's fault because you are just afraid to admit this? It takes us back to the three models. I say that the good that man does is his own doing, and the evil he does is forced upon him by the Damager-God. You say just the opposite: that the evil that man does is his own doing, while the good just must be the result of ``help'' from God. Which makes more sense to you, and why? You talk about ``horrid little creatures'' inside of yourself. Who do you think put those creatures there? I have felt them. Do you what sort of freedom knowing this fact, and knowing that you can suppress and beat these infestations of God within you, can bring you? It IS true, Rick. Trust me. God sets up a moral code for you, and then He builds obstacles in your way to prevent you from living up to it. If you really believe in your benevolent Creator-God, how can you account for this contradiction based on that assumption of God's goodness? I never said we were ``perfect at the core,'' I simply said that without the interference of God's infestation we were basically good. I can very honestly say that since coming to know God for what He is, I have never volitionally wronged another person, and I have done my best to correct any damage that may have been done through any non-volitional wronging. This is the pure morality of maltheism. God doesn't determine all our choices, He merely interferes in our minds at His whim. The trick is to beat Him when He tries to do this. When He tries to make you forget to do things to cause you problems, do things to ensure that you will not forget. When He tries to make you do wrong, realize what is happening and take control. Hitler and Manson and others like them were dupes in that they accepted the infestations of God in their minds. You don't have to do this. In closing, I would like to respond to this last section of yours: > If God wants to make people suffer and be miserable then why did He give us > a Bible that, if followed, would cause more joy and happiness than you or I > can imagine? I'm not talking about the Roman Catholic Church through the > middle ages, I'm talking about the Biblical ideals of love, peace, and unity > just to name a few that would make this world a better place to be. [...] > Two sets of sisters made a committment to care for eachother and > stop fighting and four other kids dedicated themselves to following the > ideals of the Bible; all because of the words and commands in this Bible > that you admit God inspired. Did God blow it? Even if He didn't expect to > many people to follow it, why did He write down such a collection of truths > about what it takes to get people to relate to eachother? And I'll tell you > right now that I will refuse to accept a response that says that they'll end > up blowing it over time. I know you refuse to accept a response that would contradict what you want to believe about God. And that, of course, is truly sad. You ``speak with forked tongue'' when you talk about the Bible as bringing joy and happiness. You offhandedly dismiss thousands of years of hatred in the name of God (as if saying ``that doesn't count''). Don't you see that that's part of the elegance of God's method of lying? Make it seem like He's written a book of love, when in reality He's written a textbook on death and hatred. I do hope you will come to see the light about what God really is, instead of ``refusing to accept'' any evidence might change your mind. Be well, -- Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories pyuxn!pez
padraig@utastro.UUCP (Padraig Houlahan) (09/10/85)
> There are three possibilities for modeling the forces of good and > evil. The atheists claim they are both the result of natural forces, > and thus not essentially different. The God whorshipers claim that good > is the result of the actions of a loving God, while evil is part of the > natural flow. Maltheists claim that good is the part which is determined > by the natural flow of things, while evil is an interfering entropic force > manifested in a malevolent Damager-God. A slight correction here: atheists do not necessarily recognize the existence of "forces of good and evil". Therefore there is no need to explain them with natural forces, or say that they are essentially the same. Padraig Houlahan.
ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (09/12/85)
In article <330@pyuxn.UUCP>, pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) writes: > Rick, > You repeatedly claim that I do not offer proof of the existence > of God. I find this strange, since you have already mentioned to me that > you are a believing Christian. Certainly it is not you I need to offer > proof to. That would be true if we were talking about the same God. But the one to whom you refer evolved (??) and is evil and doesn't have the properties of the one I believe so I'd be interested in hearing about how this God came about. > There are three possibilities for modeling the forces of good and evil. Who said anything about modeling the forces of good and evil. You don't belive that God has existed eternally and you don't believe that He was created so where did He come from? Did He evolve? Were there others that evolved? I asked this last time and this is the question that I want to hear your proof of. I don't claim to have 'proof' that God exists. I believe there is 'evidence' but that is significantly (and not just semantically) different. Or are just going to assume that a non-corporeal, way-powerful deity evolved even when many scientists don't believe there was enough time for human evolution to have gotten as far as it has? > > Rick, you did make the simple statement that ``Jesus Christ WAS > God.'' And I showed that that statement is simply an assertion that > Christians make, believing what God has told them. Don't you see how > His saying ``See? I have become human and suffered just like you.'' is > a ruse and a sham? You showed? There is alot more evidence supporting that a actual, human man walked this earth 2000 years ago and did the miracles He is reported to have done than there is evidence in anything you've said so far in this whole discussion. You simply made an assertion back. Without going any further about my belief, where do you get you evidence for Christ being a duped human and a pawn of the damager-God? From the Bible?? From your 'observations'? Forgive the accusatory tone of this paragraph, but you keep stating that you've done something that I don't ever seem to see you having done. > > What else could you blame Hitler or Manson's abnormalities on? > Are you falling for another of God's lies, about the fallenness of man? > Is the reason that you ``just flat out refuse'' to admit that the evil > done by men is God's fault because you are just afraid to admit this? Forgive me for not remembering who said this, but in discussing how one would act if free will didn't (or might not) exist, his conclusion was to go ahead and think he had it anyway, because if he doesn't than it's some divine joke and it was determined and there's no way out and if not, that's the way it really is. So I still say that evil is a volitional choice and that Manson, Hitler were just as bad as Sister Therassa (sp??) was good. Why is it that only evil is controlled by God? Doesn't it seem kind of convenient that everything wrong gets blamed on God and all the good stuff comes only when God is too lazy to really screw us or when we as people outsmart (outsmart a omniscient God??) and sneak in some fun without His being able to do anything about it. Doesn't that just seem a little convenient? Would you put up with that excuse from your kids? "Sorry Mom, I didn't clean my room because the evil, damager-God made me be bad." > > I know you refuse to accept a response that would contradict what you > want to believe about God. And that, of course, is truly sad. You ``speak with > forked tongue'' when you talk about the Bible as bringing joy and happiness. > You offhandedly dismiss thousands of years of hatred in the name of God (as > if saying ``that doesn't count''). Don't you see that that's part of the > elegance of God's method of lying? Make it seem like He's written a book of > love, when in reality He's written a textbook on death and hatred. But that's my question. Show me some of the death and hatred that God wrote down for us to follow. Love your enemies? Bless them that curse you and pray for them who despitefully use you? Are these the words that inspired the inquisition? How about, "all those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Did the Bible inspire the inquisition or did men? And how about the chruch's burning of Ptolemy at the stake because he didn't accept their doctrine without thinking. I can't find the reference right now, but Paul, in one of his letters to a church commends them for searching the scriptures and examining the apostles teaching to see if it is true. Did the Church look at this verse when they refused to allow dissenting opinions from thier doctrines? And how about the class set up the the church perpetuated, the poor people continually being treated as if they weren't quite of the same value as the church officials and the lords and nobles of the great houses (I hate to use the word great here). The Bible clearly says that in order to be first you must be last for even the Son of Man didn not come to be served but to serve. Throughout the gospels, Christ commands us to love our neighbor as ourself. Name one 3rd century through 20th century political or religious leader who lives even a small part of that. Then think about how many governments and people have come in the 'name' of Christ. Where is the conflict? In the Bible or in the men? The Bible defines its purpose and nature quite clearly, "It is the Spririt who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I (Christ) have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some here who do not believe." (John 6:63,64) "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." (John 8:31,32) Rick Frey
pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) (09/20/85)
Rick, Why do you keep insisting that we are talking about different Gods. Are you talking about the God that you whorship, the God who calls Himself the ruler of the universe? In that case, we are talking about the same God, and believe me, from my years of experience with Him, He IS an evil pig monster. You are consistently skirting the issues about the nature of God in order to cling to beliefs about Him that you have learned to need. You contradict your own words several times when you say you feel that God exists but you demand proof from me of His existence. Certainly there is evidence that Christ walked the Earth, but the only evidence we have that he did what you believe he did is the word of God Himself. Believing that is like believing Richard Nixon's account of the Watergate years, isn't it? I contend that you are simply avoiding what you know to be true about God. Don't fight it. Fight HIM! You'll be better for it. You speak of rationalizations for believing in free will. But certainly these were infused in us by God, who causes things to happen and then makes US feel guilty about doing them. Believing that evil is a ``volitional choice'' is simply giving in to the lies of God. You say ``doesn't it seem kind of convenient that everything wrong gets blamed on God and the good stuff comes only when God is too lazy to really screw us?'' Yet you would claim that everything good in this world should be credited to God while the ``bad stuff'' is our fault? Tell me, Rick, which sounds more truthful to you? Which sounds like the way things really are and which sounds like the lies of a pig filth God? You also make smug remarks about people outsmarting an omniscient God, since that would be an impossibility. But who says God is omniscient? YOU do (and He does)! Isn't it YOUR religion that is based on convenience? You ask to see the death and hatred God wrote down. Look at the Bible itself for all the examples you need. The demand that a man sacrifice his son. The destruction of masses of people at God's say-so. The torturing and killing of people for the purpose of teaching Job a ``lesson.'' That lesson being ``I am powerful so listen to me or feel my wrath.'' I have heard some Christians distinguish between the horrid God of the Old Testament and the loving father of the New. Is this a different God? Or are we simply dealing with the same monster, who had changed His tune for the purpose of misleading us? You ask who inspired the Inquisition and the torture and murder of millions in the name of God. I answer, who else but God? When you imply that man is somehow responsible, what are you doing if not falling fall an unholy lie of God's? Finally, you ask to hear about any leader since Christ who advocated real human love. I can think of two in this century. Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Look at the fate God had in store for each of them. Be well, -- Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories pyuxn!pez
ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey) (09/26/85)
Paul, I'm going to take my article and put some of my questions next to your answers and see if we can find out what's wrong. I write you and think I've said something you need to answer, you write back with the same idea and neither of us seem to be hitting the other, so let me make clear a few of the points of my last article. >> That would be true if we were talking about the same God. But the one >> to whom you refer evolved (??) and is evil and doesn't have the >> properties of the one I believe so I'd be interested in hearing about >> how this God came about. > > Why do you keep insisting that we are talking about different > Gods. Are you talking about the God that you whorship, the God who calls > Himself the ruler of the universe? In that case, we are talking about the > same God ... We'll start here. You didn't answer my question. I said that the God you're talking about evolved, is not omnipotent, not omniscient, did not create the world and mankind and that right there is more than enough to make him or it or whatever something completely different from what I believe in. In everything you say, you describe what the Bible says of Satan to the letter. The great deceiver, intent on destroying people, trying to get people to worship him, but you are not talking about "God". "God" (the God of the Bible) does not exist. There is this evolved, nutty, powerful creature out there who's trying to trick people, but we're just not on the same wavelength here. While you disagree with the Bible, I can at least go to it to show some basis for God having these attributes. Where do you get that your evil-god is not omnipotent? How do you know he evolved and that he hasn't just tricked the scientists? If there is this powerful evil god out there trying to trick us all and make us miserable, how do you point to anything as true and correct if this god can make people be stooges? How do you know that the scientists who derive the natural laws aren't stooges? > You are consistently skirting the issues about the nature > of God in order to cling to beliefs about Him that you have learned to > need. You contradict your own words several times when you say you feel > that God exists but you demand proof from me of His existence. > Skirting them? How? I'm trying to get you to be clear on how this god that you talk about is the same God that I talk about. And where did you get that I learned to need these beliefs? Maybe I chose them? Maybe the needs are real? And the proof of existence that I demand from you is for this god that you're talking about. I believe that the God of the Bible exists, but I don't know anything about evil, evolving, semi-omnipotent gods out to get people aside from what the Bible tells us about Satan. And don't just go back to your statement that God and Satan are the same person/thing, because then you're back to this evil God that I still want to know the above info on. > Certainly there is evidence that Christ walked the Earth, but the > only evidence we have that he did what you believe he did is the word of > God Himself. Wrong. There's lots of historical evidence supporting Christ's existence outside of Biblical manuscripts. There are letters between Roman court officials talking about what to do with this Christ, Jewish historians talk about the uprisings he caused, all sorts of religious sects refer to Him and to the things He did that are not part of the Bible. There's plenty of evidence outside of the Bible. While almost eveyone on the net has jumped on this guy, read Josh McDowell's book (the chapters on the life of Christ) Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Next point. Here was a question that I asked that you never answered. >> Would you put up with that excuse from your kids? "Sorry Mom, I didn't >> clean my room because the evil, damager-God made me be bad." > Believing that evil is a > ``volitional choice'' is simply giving in to the lies of God. > So you didn't answer my question, what are you going to do with your kids? When your son comes home and says that he didn't mow the lawn because the evil-damager God made him be bad are you going to buy it? Kids don't choose to make jokes at one another? They don't enjoy the self-glorification of cutting someone else down? You don't think they know when they're doing something like that that they know is wrong? You ought to go back and visit a sixth grade again sometime. > You say ``doesn't it seem kind of convenient that everything wrong > gets blamed on God and the good stuff comes only when God is too lazy to > really screw us?'' Yet you would claim that everything good in this world > should be credited to God while the ``bad stuff'' is our fault? Tell me, > Rick, which sounds more truthful to you? You've already heard my answer. A rhetorical answer, expecting something you know I'm not going to grant you doesn't make a whole lot of sense in terms of trying to prove your point. > > You ask to see the death and hatred God wrote down. Look at the > Bible itself for all the examples you need. The demand that a man sacrifice > his son. We'll take them one at a time. The demand for God to have perfection is what you're really after (if it's not than you're not dealing with the Bible). God claims to be perfect. God claims to have created the world for purposes unknown (in many ways). God made a simple rule (or it might be part of His nature) that He will not/cannot allow sin into His presence. God made a rule that the wages of sin are death. If God was to keep His own rules and yet have us in a relationship with Himself, only He could pay the price that He demanded. He couldn't wave it without invalidating the rule and the rule still stands, so He had to pay for it. And it's funny that you take what the Bible calls the greatest act of love ("Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down hiw life for his friend.") and try to turn it into something evil. > The destruction of masses of people at God's say-so. I would guess that you're referring to some of the Old Testament wars, but if you read through alot of those stories, the other nations did alot of picking on the Jews. While I don't know of any off-hand, I'm fairly sure that there's historical/archeological evidence for the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Persians and probably other nations completely taking over the Jews. Wouldn't you fight back? In the one story where Saul doesn't wipe out the entire Amelikite nation (he saves the King and bunches of sheep and stuff) years later (I can't remember the reference off hand) it's an Amelikite spy who almost gets the Jews wiped out again. God makes it clear that you do what He says and more often than not, survival depended on it. > The torturing > and killing of people for the purpose of teaching Job a ``lesson.'' Huh? I quickly reread Job so I might have missed something, but whe were the people who were tortured and killed? I didn't see Job's wife mentioned in the ending of the book, but as far as I could tell, most of the stuff happened to Job himself. And then its simply a question of importance. Use the example of football practice. A coach and the players make the decision that giving up free-time and working hard are more beneficial to learning and growing as a team than messing around. Another analogy I always use is this. Imagine your daughter, too young to understand how a stove works or what red burners mean) starts to put her hand on the burner. Are you not going to use whatever means available to stop her? Obviously you'd stop short of shooting her, that would defeat the purpose (we hope) but you'd yank her, grab her, do almost anything else to keep her from hurting herself. You're going to have to sit still here for a load of Biblical assumptions, but the Bible claims that our relationship with God is eternal and infinitely more important than the short time we'll have on this earth. In the story of Job, God is making the simple point that Christ makes in Mark 9:47, "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, be cast into hell." And also and more exactly like the story in Job, Mathew 16:26, "For what will a man be profitted if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul, for what in this world shall a man give in exchange for the life of his soul?" More on the Bible being a textbook for evil question: >> But that's my question. Show me some of the death and hatred that God wrote >> down for us to follow. Love your enemies? Bless them that curse you, pray >> for them who despitefully use you? Are these the words that inspired the >> inquisition? How about, "all those who live by the sword will die by the >> sword." Did the Bible inspire the inquisition or did men? > You ask who inspired the Inquisition and the torture and murder of > millions in the name of God. I answer, who else but God? But what kind of an answer is that? We were talking about how the Bible was this source for evil and you tacked the inquisition on the teachings of the Bible so I gave you a few quotes that sure seem to me to say no inquisition, but your response was another rhetorical question that I'd hope by now you'd know that I wouldn't agree with. I'm still looking for you to answer my questions about how the Bible supported the inquisition. > > Finally, you ask to hear about any leader since Christ who advocated > real human love. I can think of two in this century. Mahatma Gandhi and > Martin Luther King. Look at the fate God had in store for each of them. > When I asked that question, I was sure there were a few people that for the most part could be said to fit that distinction so I won't argue with those two. But that still doesn't even begin to touch the surface of rulers who have come in the name of Christ or of God and have practiced everything but what the Bible teaches. >> The Bible defines its purpose and >> nature quite clearly, "It is the Spririt who gives life; the flesh profits >> nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. >> But there are some here who do not believe." (John 6:63,64) "If you abide in >> My word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you shall know the truth >> and the truth shall set you free." (John 8:31,32) You didn't want to respond to this set of quotes so let me give you a few more. "He it is who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me." John 14:21 "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also the interests of others." Philippians 2:3-4 Please explain to me what these are doing in the book of an evil god? How does God get pleasure from teaching people ways to relate to one another that emphasize everything this god's against? Rick Frey