dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich') (01/01/70)
Paul, Please except my apologies for calling you Mr. Z. However, I did not call you that in contempt. It was merely a short cut rather than writing out your entire name. I will from here on address you as Paul. Thank you for sending me those articles in the mail. I did not see them on the net and was wondering if you had responded or not. First, I will comment on some of the things that you said. > Anyone who has lived a full life has experienced hurt of >some kind or other. The question is ``Why?'' Is it because of the random >elements of chance that evolutionists attribute their theories to? Or is it >because of the deliberate interference of a Damager-God? Or is it a result of man's fallen and evil nature? Just as the Apostle Paul, I also am aware of an evil that is present within me. It is this evil that causes men to steal, kill, and rape. It is this evil that causes war. It is this evil nature that causes men to stand by while their brothers and sisters are starving and dying. Why does Jerry Lewis have to do a telethon to raise a few million dollars for MD. There are many multi-millionaires in the world that could give the money NOW and write it off their taxes. You attribute this to the Damager-God but I attribute it to the selfishness of man's heart. >You say you ``know'' I could not possibly really believe my ``theory.'' >I believe it because the evidence makes it clear that it is true. Why do you >believe your ``theory?'' Since I was never ``trying to serve'' God, I am not >trying to hurt Him back. I am trying to erode the base of sheepish whorshipful >support for a pig monster who gains pleasure from our misery by letting people >know what He is really like. I don't believe that He is as all powerful as >you might believe (obviously He makes mistakes), and I believe someday He >will be beaten. And I live in hope for that day. The evidence may be consistence with your belief. It is also consistent with mine. However, your theory has a basic underlying flaw. You base your beliefs on various incidents described in the Bible. But then you add your own interpratation of the events. You claim that the facts are are mixed with lies of the Damager-God. You have therefore, set yourself up as THE prophet who has the ability to distinguish between truth and error in the Bible. How did you come to this revelation. If there are lies in the Bible than nothing in it is reliable. Your theory crumbles for lack of evidence that this Damager-God even exists. The only evidence you have left is the evil and inhumanity of man throughout the centuries of recorded history. But, this is no evidence for the existance of God, just the evil of man. The evidence for my belief in a good God comes right out of the Bible with no discerning of truth and error. Just what the scriptures say. If you accept the Bible as evidence than it is not subject to whimsical changes in the facts and God's charactor. The claims of the Bible have been substantiated in my life. I have experienced the evil within me that it describes, I have experienced the meaninglessness of life apart from God, I have experienced the forgiveness of sins, and the joy and love that comes from a God who has my best interests in mind. Another flaw in your theory is your belief that one day this God will be beaten. You said that He is not as powerful as I might believe. Where do you get that information from? The Bible? Who do you think could ever beat a God who can do the things you yourself say He has done? He can destroy cities and people at His mere command. He can destroy the world in a flood. He is planning to destroy all mankind at Armegeddon. Yet, you think He can be beaten. This is a frightening position, Paul. Because it is Satan himself and his anti-christ who thinks he can and tries to beat God. Revelations 19 says that the armies of the earth led by Satan will turn to fight against Christ at His return. Paul, there is an Evil-Damager God. It is Satan. He is the god of this world and you are believing his lies. His lies from the very beginning in Genesis 3. > If I have ``hurt God,'' as you say, then I am extremely proud. I doubt >that this has occured, because I am just one human being, and billions of >people still offer the sheepish whorship He has sought by inducing the belief >into our minds about how good He is despite His evil doings. You are as much >a victim of this as the other billions, Dan. I feel truly sorry for you. If >you feel you are suffering, it is because you have fallen for His lines and >now sympathize with Him, despite what you know about His evil. If you feel >as honored as Paul did to suffer, then you have fallen for God's biggest >lie: ``Suffering for me is good.'' Why do you believe this? Suffering is inevitable. It came upon us when Adam disobeyed God. Death was introduced into the world at that time. Adam was warned. He didn't listen. But God, rich in mercy, immediately spoke of the hope to come in the one who would bruise the serpants head, the seed of the woman. Any suffering that has come to Christians has come at the hand of men. Don't blame God for Nero and the other Ceaser's persecutions. Don't blame God for the Inquisition and the persecution of the Reformers. Don't blame God for the persecution behind the Iron Curtain, until you can give me good solid evidence that He is responsible. Until then the evidence is obvious. I have never seen the hand of God nail a man's limbs to a hunk of wood, or release the switch on a guillitine. I have never seen God toss men into a filthy, diseased prison cell to watch him rot. I have never seen God light the match to burn a man at the stake. Jesus said, "They hated me, they shall also hate you!" They have proven Him right down through the ages. I don't seek to suffer and I have not really suffered very much. However, if I should one day find myself in the position of my brothers and sisters behind the Iron Curtain, than so be it. It won't be because of an Evil- Damager God, but an evil-damager human race that kills it's own for sport and gain! Suffering in and of itself is NOT good. But God has used even the self-inflicted suffering of our evil race for His glory and our benifit. God said, "All things work together for good to those who love God." This includes suffering. Let me explain how. Man is in rebellion against God. He seeks after his own way. He does his own thing, excluding God. Genesis 4 thru 11 illustrates this. Romans ch.1 talks about it. Even as Christians, we are still inclined to rebellion. Paul talks about this in Romans ch. 5-7. To be born-again is the beginning of a new life. At this point God begins to teach us His ways and conform us to the image of His perfect Son. But we rebel at times not wanting to give up our old ways and sins. Only when we allow ourselves to be controlled by God's spirit can we grow and experience His grace and love. Suffering causes us to seek God. When things are going our way we tend to get self-sufficient and selfish. When we suffer, we remember who we are and what is really important. It draws us to Christ. Through suffering He is there ready to embrace me and help me through it. It is at this time that I come to experience the goodness of God and the Life that He offers. Like Peter said, "Where could we go, Rabbi, You have the words of eternal Life!" > As I have said to others, don't waste prayers to the pig filth >Damager-God, on me or on you. There is no love from Him waiting for >anybody. Did He really ``become human flesh,'' or did He just select a man >as His son and dupe him into suffering for Him, in His place, then duping >the rest of mankind into believing it all? Why do you persistently believe >in God's lies when you have already said that you know better, that you have >questioned the goodness of God? Why the heck did you stop? Here again you have created your own belief about Christ. Where have you recieved your information? "Select a man and dupe him into suffering..." Wow! Your theory is based on assumptions just like this. You say that God is a liar, therefore what He says in the Bible must be lies. Than you go about telling us what are lies and what are not. Nothing but assumptions! Have you ever considered the possibility that you are evil, Paul? I mean in the biblical sense that all mankind is evil. Have you ever examined your heart objectively? Do you find yourself pure? Of course, you can always blame the Evil-Damager God for your evil because He created you, right? Why God created man, knowing he would fall, I can not answer. But I can say that I am glad I am here. I am glad God did create me. I am glad He gave me a choice to follow Him or reject Him. I chose to reject Him for the first 20 years of my life. Than after a brief period of serving Him, I rebelled again for a few years. I have great joy in the knowledge that God not only created me knowing I would fall, but He paid the price for my rebellion, and He saved me, knowing that I would rebel again and again. First John chapter one says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." To confess means to agree with God concerning our sins. This is a characteristic of a Christian. We are the ones who agree with God about our sinfullness and rebellion. And He is faithful and Just to forgive us. Than He gives us eternal Life with Him in His Glory! Paul, I apologize for calling you a monster. But tell me, if there was someone you loved dearly and had experienced their love and goodness towards you, and someone called that person a pig monster, evil, damaging being, etc. do you think it might provoke you to think that person was not quite right. What do you think you might say to that person? I did think through the things you said about God. I considered them carefully. I didn't just write them off. I can see how one would blame God for evil things that happen to them and around them. But I also believe that this is because we are short-sighted and have corrupt vision. Try to see things from Gods point of view and from an eternal aspect. God has His reasons for doing things. If we don't understand them, that doesn't make them evil. Remember, if He created us, He must be smarter than us. If He is infinite, than how can we being finite understand Him completely. Don't let the Evil-Damaging Satan trick you with his lies as he did Adam and Eve. Trick you into questioning God's actions, attitudes, and motives! Don't be a sheepish follower of the god of this world, Satan, and succumb to his treachery and deceit. You know what evil he is capable of and has done. He will be beaten someday by the True and Almighty One. Choose this day who you will serve: As for me and my house, we will serve God! Regards, Dan Boskovich
pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) (10/01/85)
Dan, To keep it simple, you berate my position because my beliefs are ``nothing but assumptions.'' I find it disheartening when God whorshipers complain that MY position is based on assumptions (What position isn't?), while the statements they make are based on assumptions that are no better (and ostensibly much worse) than mine. Dan, you speak about ``man's fallen and evil nature.'' Certainly it is man's ``nature'' to do good. The way man cares for his fellow man, for his children, for people in general. There is something documentably wrong with people who engage in the evil you describe. How then can you call this ``man's nature'' when we are talking about exceptions to the rule? You say I add in my own interpretation of the events in the Bible to reach my conclusion. And you don't? You see the evil that God performs and you claim that it is all good because God did it. You work from the assumption that God exists and must be good, and because of this assumption your conclusions are false. You say ``if there are lies in the Bible than nothing in it is reliable.'' This is not necessarily so. One way to make a document seem more truthful is to interject a few facts mixed in with the propaganda. This is why God tells stories about His destructive power, stories that have been at least partially substantiated by archeological evidence (the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flight of the Hebrews from Egypt). Your error in judgment comes when you assume that God simply MUST be good because you want Him to be. He feeds on this want of yours and uses you till you bleed. I might add, at this point, another frightening problem I have noticed with responses to my articles. If I were to make a statement such as the one I just made (``This is why God does this...''), it is torn down as just an assertion, just what I say, nothing more. Yet the responses to such a sentence are nothing more than claims and assertions themselves, which are easily shown to be founded on assumptions such as those Dan makes. An example is when Dan proclaims there is ``no evidence for the evil of God, just the evil of man.'' Dan, if you have experienced ``the evil within [you],'' why didn't you fight it and recognize it for what it is: the interference of the pig filth Damager-God? Dan, you ARE a good person, and you can continue to be if and only if you fight the evil influence of the pig God! You say my ``theory'' is flawed because I claim God can be beaten. But this is only because of YOUR assumption that He is omnipotent! I have admitted that God is powerful (the Bible attests to His destructive abilities), but He has made numerous mistakes that He tries to patch and cover up throughout history. He failed to get the whole world to ``convert'' to Christianity throuugh coercion, crusade, and colonialism. He covers this up by simply building up the other religions of the world to fight among themselves and with Christianity, in order to perpetuate the world violence He wants. You say ``it is Satan himself and the anti-christ who tries to beat God.'' But that is just what God wants you to believe. God and Satan are the same being, Dan! Believe me, if we work together, if we shed the evil influence of God, someday we WILL beat him! And you and I and everyone else will all be the better for it. Why do you believe that suffering is inevitable? That is nothing but a lie God told you. He told you in a way that would make you scared to question it, scared to think about it, scared to do anything about it. Any suffering that has come to Christians (and everyone else) has been either directly at the hand of God, or at the hand of men led by God. You say ``Don't blame God'' for the evil he induces men to do. WHY NOT? You ask for ``solid evidence that He is responsible'' for it. Where is YOUR solid evidence that He is responsible for the good you claim Him to be responsible for? You are thwarted from reaching the obvious logical conclusion by your assumptions that we are an ``evil damager human race.'' This is yet another lie told to you by God. Dan, you say ``Man is in rebellion against God. He seeks after his own way. He does his own thing.'' Is it wrong to seek after our own way? Is it wrong only because God doesn't like it? Why does that alone make it wrong? You have been duped into believing and accepting the lies of an evil God. If you held to the principles you claim to hold, those involving real love for human beings, you too would be in rebellion against this monster. It is sad that your need to believe in and whorship God supercedes your humanity. The demands of an alien, inhuman, evil God are more important to you than the needs of your fellow human beings. I asked you why you chose to stop questioning God at those vital moments when you recognized Him for what He is. You responded by saying that I have created my own belief about Christ. You're absolutely right: I have learned not to accept God's account of such things the same way I wouldn't believe the story of Watergate as told by Richard Nixon. Yes, Dan, I say ``God is a liar, therefore what He says in the Bible must be lies,'' and I show which things are lies and why. And you respond by calling it all ``Nothing but assumptions!'' Yet you say ``God is the ultimate truth, therefore what He says in the Bible must be the truth.'' Isn't THAT nothing but an assumption? Then, Dan, the ultimate denigration of my beliefs: you ask if I have ever considered the possibility that I am evil! That is beneath you, Dan. Of course, you are right, I can and do blame the Damager-God for evil. You blame yourself. Why? Because HE told you you are evil and you believed Him! Why? I wonder if you have asked yourself the question about yourself, thinking about whether you and your beliefs might be evil, or whether you might have been duped by evil. It is sad that you rejected Him and then backslid into whorshiping Him again. (I take that to mean that you still acknowledged and accepted the fact of His existence but rejected His influence.) I accept your apology, but I do wish you would really think through the things I have said about God this time around instead of avoiding them. My question to you is why you don't think seriously about the possibility that this God has deceived you. I do present significant evidence about God (evidence you have seen already yourself) that you choose to ignore in favor of believing that He represents love and goodness. You must ask why you choose to do this in the face of such evidence. You claim it is my vision that has been corrupted. I think a careful consideration of what I have said might show to you that it is your vision that has been corrupted, if you just drop a few of your assumptions about God. You speak about Satan (as the serpent) ``tricking'' us into questioning God's actions, attitudes, and motives. The fact that you consider the suggestion that you question such things to be ``trickery'' tells me a lot about the types of assumptions you make, and how God has successfully deceived you, how He has swayed you into believing that any questioning of Him is wrong. Don't you recognize evil when you see it? Be well, -- Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories pyuxn!pez
patdiv@ihlpa.UUCP (j. freeland) (10/04/85)
> > > Paul, > > Please except my apologies for calling you Mr. Z. However, I did not > call you that in contempt. It was merely a short cut rather than > writing out your entire name. I will from here on address you as Paul. > > Thank you for sending me those articles in the mail. I did not see > them on the net and was wondering if you had responded or not. > > First, I will comment on some of the things that you said. > > > Anyone who has lived a full life has experienced hurt of > >some kind or other. The question is ``Why?'' Is it because of the random > >elements of chance that evolutionists attribute their theories to? Or is it > >because of the deliberate interference of a Damager-God? > > Or is it a result of man's fallen and evil nature? Just as the Apostle > Paul, I also am aware of an evil that is present within me. It is this > evil that causes men to steal, kill, and rape. It is this evil that > causes war. It is this evil nature that causes men to stand by while > their brothers and sisters are starving and dying. Why does Jerry Lewis > have to do a telethon to raise a few million dollars for MD. There are > many multi-millionaires in the world that could give the money NOW and > write it off their taxes. You attribute this to the Damager-God but I > attribute it to the selfishness of man's heart. > > >You say you ``know'' I could not possibly really believe my ``theory.'' > >I believe it because the evidence makes it clear that it is true. Why do you > >believe your ``theory?'' Since I was never ``trying to serve'' God, I am not > >trying to hurt Him back. I am trying to erode the base of sheepish whorshipful > >support for a pig monster who gains pleasure from our misery by letting people > >know what He is really like. I don't believe that He is as all powerful as > >you might believe (obviously He makes mistakes), and I believe someday He > >will be beaten. And I live in hope for that day. > > The evidence may be consistence with your belief. It is also consistent > with mine. However, your theory has a basic underlying flaw. You base > your beliefs on various incidents described in the Bible. But then you > add your own interpratation of the events. You claim that the facts are > are mixed with lies of the Damager-God. You have therefore, set yourself > up as THE prophet who has the ability to distinguish between truth and > error in the Bible. How did you come to this revelation. If there are lies > in the Bible than nothing in it is reliable. Your theory crumbles for > lack of evidence that this Damager-God even exists. The only evidence > you have left is the evil and inhumanity of man throughout the centuries > of recorded history. But, this is no evidence for the existance of God, > just the evil of man. > > The evidence for my belief in a good God comes right out of the Bible > with no discerning of truth and error. Just what the scriptures say. If > you accept the Bible as evidence than it is not subject to whimsical > changes in the facts and God's charactor. The claims of the Bible have > been substantiated in my life. I have experienced the evil within me > that it describes, I have experienced the meaninglessness of life apart > from God, I have experienced the forgiveness of sins, and the joy and > love that comes from a God who has my best interests in mind. > > Another flaw in your theory is your belief that one day this God will be > beaten. You said that He is not as powerful as I might believe. Where > do you get that information from? The Bible? Who do you think could ever > beat a God who can do the things you yourself say He has done? He can > destroy cities and people at His mere command. He can destroy the world > in a flood. He is planning to destroy all mankind at Armegeddon. Yet, you > think He can be beaten. This is a frightening position, Paul. Because it > is Satan himself and his anti-christ who thinks he can and tries to beat > God. Revelations 19 says that the armies of the earth led by Satan will > turn to fight against Christ at His return. > > Paul, there is an Evil-Damager God. It is Satan. He is the god of this > world and you are believing his lies. His lies from the very beginning > in Genesis 3. > > > If I have ``hurt God,'' as you say, then I am extremely proud. I doubt > >that this has occured, because I am just one human being, and billions of > >people still offer the sheepish whorship He has sought by inducing the belief > >into our minds about how good He is despite His evil doings. You are as much > >a victim of this as the other billions, Dan. I feel truly sorry for you. If > >you feel you are suffering, it is because you have fallen for His lines and > >now sympathize with Him, despite what you know about His evil. If you feel > >as honored as Paul did to suffer, then you have fallen for God's biggest > >lie: ``Suffering for me is good.'' Why do you believe this? > > Suffering is inevitable. It came upon us when Adam disobeyed God. Death > was introduced into the world at that time. Adam was warned. He didn't > listen. But God, rich in mercy, immediately spoke of the hope to come > in the one who would bruise the serpants head, the seed of the woman. > > Any suffering that has come to Christians has come at the hand of men. > Don't blame God for Nero and the other Ceaser's persecutions. Don't blame > God for the Inquisition and the persecution of the Reformers. Don't blame > God for the persecution behind the Iron Curtain, until you can give me > good solid evidence that He is responsible. Until then the evidence is > obvious. I have never seen the hand of God nail a man's limbs to a hunk > of wood, or release the switch on a guillitine. I have never seen God > toss men into a filthy, diseased prison cell to watch him rot. I have > never seen God light the match to burn a man at the stake. Jesus said, > "They hated me, they shall also hate you!" They have proven Him right > down through the ages. > > I don't seek to suffer and I have not really suffered very much. However, > if I should one day find myself in the position of my brothers and sisters > behind the Iron Curtain, than so be it. It won't be because of an Evil- > Damager God, but an evil-damager human race that kills it's own for sport > and gain! Suffering in and of itself is NOT good. But God has used even > the self-inflicted suffering of our evil race for His glory and our benifit. > > God said, "All things work together for good to those who love God." This > includes suffering. Let me explain how. > > Man is in rebellion against God. He seeks after his own way. He does his > own thing, excluding God. Genesis 4 thru 11 illustrates this. Romans ch.1 > talks about it. Even as Christians, we are still inclined to rebellion. > Paul talks about this in Romans ch. 5-7. To be born-again is the beginning > of a new life. At this point God begins to teach us His ways and conform > us to the image of His perfect Son. But we rebel at times not wanting to > give up our old ways and sins. Only when we allow ourselves to be controlled > by God's spirit can we grow and experience His grace and love. > > Suffering causes us to seek God. When things are going our way we tend > to get self-sufficient and selfish. When we suffer, we remember who we > are and what is really important. It draws us to Christ. > > Through suffering He is there ready to embrace me and help me through it. > It is at this time that I come to experience the goodness of God and the > Life that He offers. Like Peter said, "Where could we go, Rabbi, You have > the words of eternal Life!" > > > As I have said to others, don't waste prayers to the pig filth > >Damager-God, on me or on you. There is no love from Him waiting for > >anybody. Did He really ``become human flesh,'' or did He just select a man > >as His son and dupe him into suffering for Him, in His place, then duping > >the rest of mankind into believing it all? Why do you persistently believe > >in God's lies when you have already said that you know better, that you have > >questioned the goodness of God? Why the heck did you stop? > > Here again you have created your own belief about Christ. Where have you > recieved your information? "Select a man and dupe him into suffering..." > Wow! Your theory is based on assumptions just like this. You say that > God is a liar, therefore what He says in the Bible must be lies. Than you > go about telling us what are lies and what are not. Nothing but assumptions! > > Have you ever considered the possibility that you are evil, Paul? I mean > in the biblical sense that all mankind is evil. Have you ever examined > your heart objectively? Do you find yourself pure? Of course, you can > always blame the Evil-Damager God for your evil because He created you, > right? > > Why God created man, knowing he would fall, I can not answer. But I can > say that I am glad I am here. I am glad God did create me. I am glad He > gave me a choice to follow Him or reject Him. I chose to reject Him for > the first 20 years of my life. Than after a brief period of serving Him, > I rebelled again for a few years. I have great joy in the knowledge that > God not only created me knowing I would fall, but He paid the price for > my rebellion, and He saved me, knowing that I would rebel again and again. > > First John chapter one says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and > Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." > > To confess means to agree with God concerning our sins. This is a > characteristic of a Christian. We are the ones who agree with God about > our sinfullness and rebellion. And He is faithful and Just to forgive > us. Than He gives us eternal Life with Him in His Glory! > > Paul, I apologize for calling you a monster. But tell me, if there was > someone you loved dearly and had experienced their love and goodness towards > you, and someone called that person a pig monster, evil, damaging being, etc. > do you think it might provoke you to think that person was not quite right. > What do you think you might say to that person? > > I did think through the things you said about God. I considered them > carefully. I didn't just write them off. I can see how one would > blame God for evil things that happen to them and around them. But I > also believe that this is because we are short-sighted and have corrupt > vision. Try to see things from Gods point of view and from an eternal > aspect. God has His reasons for doing things. If we don't understand > them, that doesn't make them evil. Remember, if He created us, He must > be smarter than us. If He is infinite, than how can we being finite > understand Him completely. Don't let the Evil-Damaging Satan trick you > with his lies as he did Adam and Eve. Trick you into questioning God's > actions, attitudes, and motives! Don't be a sheepish follower of the > god of this world, Satan, and succumb to his treachery and deceit. You > know what evil he is capable of and has done. He will be beaten someday > by the True and Almighty One. > > Choose this day who you will serve: As for me and my house, we will > serve God! > > Regards, > > Dan Boskovich *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***