mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (09/19/85)
In article <547@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >None of the monotheistic religions are sexually egalitarian. Judaism >incorporates many discriminatory commandments and temple practices. >Christianity also incorporates discriminatory temple practices and has >historically been very sexist. I don't see Moslems as being qualitatively >different from Jews or Christians in this respect. Considering that a number of christian denominations have actively promoted ordination of female clergy, and justified doing so theologically, I don't see how there is any justification for this monolithic evaluation of christianity. There are so few values held in common by the various christian sects and denominations, in fact, that ANY blanket statement is probably false. Charley Wingate
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (09/21/85)
> From mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) Thu Sep 19 08:39:33 1985 > Message-ID: <1629@umcp-cs.UUCP> > In article <547@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) > writes: > > >None of the monotheistic religions are sexually egalitarian. Judaism > >incorporates many discriminatory commandments and temple practices. > >Christianity also incorporates discriminatory temple practices and has > >historically been very sexist. I don't see Moslems as being qualitatively > >different from Jews or Christians in this respect. > > Considering that a number of christian denominations have actively promoted > ordination of female clergy, and justified doing so theologically, I don't > see how there is any justification for this monolithic evaluation of > christianity. There are so few values held in common by the various > christian sects and denominations, in fact, that ANY blanket statement is > probably false. In a letter to Time magazine, published in the issue of 23 Sept 85, Nizar Hamdoon, the Iraqi Ambassador to the U.S., states: "I was surprised to read the unfair and misleading information on Islam in your story "Sex and the Singular Imam" [WORLD, July 29]. Islam has never put any stipulations on women being subjected to men except that they be show respect. Muslim women have entered every walk of life. They are politicians, fighters and poets, sharing with men almost all social duties in addition to raising their children. There are numerous examples cited in the Holy Koran and the hadith of women and their significant role in society and the family. The Prophet Muammad himself was a father and a husband who cherished and respected his relationship to women. Indeed, the first believer in his message was his wife Khdija, who stood beside him from the first moment." I have also heard Jews deny that there is any sexism involved in their laws and temple practices, such as shutting up all the women in the back of the synagogue behind a curtain. Yet the fact is that in Jewish, Moslem, and Christian societies, women have almost always been treated as inferiors, and in the organized religions have not been granted authority in any way commensurate with that of men. To deny this is either to lie or to deliberately blind oneself to fact. Things are changing in all three religions during this century; for instance the move (mentioned by Wingate) to allow women to speak in church in a few Christian churches, despite the instructions in the letters of Paul. If one is to blame Islam for its centuries of oppression of women, then one must also blame Judaism and Christianity for the precisely similar phenomena in their religions and societies. Letting just one, or even two, off the hook and leaving the other to hang is nothing more than a hypocritical double standard. I am not sure whether Wingate meant only to defend his religion, or to leave the accusations about Islam intact, but I am sure many took his message as an argument in favor of the idea that Christians are somehow less culpable for the sexism of their religion than Moslems are for the sexism of theirs. This is false; all are equally culpable. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (09/24/85)
In article <560@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >> From mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) Thu Sep 19 08:39:33 1985 >> In article <547@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) >> writes: >>>None of the monotheistic religions are sexually egalitarian. Judaism >>>incorporates many discriminatory commandments and temple practices. >>>Christianity also incorporates discriminatory temple practices and has >>>historically been very sexist. I don't see Moslems as being qualitatively >>>different from Jews or Christians in this respect. >> Considering that a number of christian denominations have actively promoted >> ordination of female clergy, and justified doing so theologically, I don't >> see how there is any justification for this monolithic evaluation of >> christianity. There are so few values held in common by the various >> christian sects and denominations, in fact, that ANY blanket statement is >> probably false. >Yet the fact is that in Jewish, Moslem, and Christian societies, women have >almost always been treated as inferiors, and in the organized religions have >not been granted authority in any way commensurate with that of men. To >deny this is either to lie or to deliberately blind oneself to fact. Things >are changing in all three religions during this century; for instance the >move (mentioned by Wingate) to allow women to speak in church in a few >Christian churches, despite the instructions in the letters of Paul. If one >is to blame Islam for its centuries of oppression of women, then one must >also blame Judaism and Christianity for the precisely similar phenomena in >their religions and societies. Letting just one, or even two, off the hook >and leaving the other to hang is nothing more than a hypocritical double >standard. I am not sure whether Wingate meant only to defend his religion, >or to leave the accusations about Islam intact, but I am sure many took his >message as an argument in favor of the idea that Christians are somehow less >culpable for the sexism of their religion than Moslems are for the sexism of >theirs. This is false; all are equally culpable. First, let me say that I intended no comment about either Islam or Judaism; in the former case, my ignorance of theology is total, and in the latter case, there appears to my eye to be similar diversity of views. I chose to tak about the Episcopal Church because it is the one I know best; similar movements are taking place in other Protestant denominations. Let us consider Paul's letters to the ROmans and to the Corinthians (since these are essentially the only scriptural source of justification for suppessing women's voice in the church). With the advent of less literal-minded examination of the moral implications of scripture, many churches have decided that Paul's writings must be read in light of the social situation of Paul's day, where the place of women was considerably more restricted ithan it is now. When a woman can run for the vice presidency, and be taken seriously, the chruch believes that there is no reason why a woman cannot be a bishop, and be taken seriously. Criticising current religions on the basis of their ancestors is, I would submit, a dubious thing. Every religion or philosophy that has enjoyed significant popularity and power has been "adopted" at times by the unscrupulous, the destructive, and the greedy. It provides excellent cover for them. The culture surrounding the religion, which is an important input into the moral decisions made within the religion, also has changed a great deal. Fifty or a hundred years ago, when the majority of Americans in towns actually did attend church, blue laws may have made some sense. But if the USA was ever a "Christian" nation, it certainly isn't now. Many denominations have had to re-think their sexual morality. It's also not clear that monotheism has anything to do with it. Suppression of women is widespread in polytheisms too, and even in societies where religion is not formalized at all. Within the various monotheistic religions, denominations, and sects, there is plenty of dissent about the place of women. So it is unfair, and wrong, to characterize monotheism as being monolithically opressive of women. Charley Wingate
berger@aecom.UUCP (Mitchell Berger) (09/26/85)
> I have also heard Jews deny that there is any sexism involved in their laws > and temple practices, such as shutting up all the women in the back of the > synagogue behind a curtain. If anything, it's a put down to men, their attention spans, and self control over their libidos. -micha PS- Am I paranoid, or do I detect a cynical tone here?
pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul M. Dubuc) (09/27/85)
In article <1671@umcp-cs.UUCP> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >... >Let us consider Paul's letters to the ROmans and to the Corinthians (since >these are essentially the only scriptural source of justification for >suppessing women's voice in the church). With the advent of less >literal-minded examination of the moral implications of scripture, many >churches have decided that Paul's writings must be read in light of the >social situation of Paul's day, where the place of women was considerably >more restricted ithan it is now. When a woman can run for the vice >presidency, and be taken seriously, the chruch believes that there is no >reason why a woman cannot be a bishop, and be taken seriously. I'm not exactly sure what Charley means by "a less literal-minded examination", but the process of "deculturizing" Scripture, to which he alludes, is not even necessary. For example, Mary J. Evans has shown that many of the passages used to assign a secondary place to women are interpreted with presupposed notions of the meanings of certain terms which do not necessarily correspond to the meaning indended by the biblical authors. (See _Woman in the Bible_, by Mary J. Evans, InterVarsity Press 1983). -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd
tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (10/04/85)
>> I have also heard Jews deny that there is any sexism involved in their laws >> and temple practices, such as shutting up all the women in the back of the >> synagogue behind a curtain. > >If anything, it's a put down to men, their attention spans, and self >control over their libidos. > -micha > >PS- Am I paranoid, or do I detect a cynical tone here? Thank you for the example. By the way, the term is "ironic", not "cynical." Please bear in mind the purpose of my message. Several people claimed that Islam was demonstrably inferior to Judaism and Christianity, and cited facts to that effect. I pointed out that they omitted similar facts about Judaism and Christianity, and that therefore the comparison was not valid. The intent was not so much to attack Judaism or Christianity as to disprove false claims made concerning Islam, which in fact is no worse than Judaism or Christianity by an impartial standard. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!"