bandy@lll-crg.UUCP (Andrew Scott Beals) (09/27/85)
In article <280@ccivax.UUCP> rb@ccivax.UUCP (rex ballard) writes: > >I believe there is room for SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLES in american life. There is certainly room for "spiritual principles" in some people's lives. Many of them are probably also americans. However, this does not meant that all americans would appreciate ANYONE deciding what principles (if any (freedom of religion == freedom FROM religion) they should learn. True, there are many sheep who just love being told what to think (or believe). >Fortunately, after an episode with an uncontrollable >situation, they learn that they MUST RELY on a HIGHER POWER. Really? Just because they rolled the dice and got snake eyes? Well well well. This seems like a Just Fine And Dandy thing to happen - if life hands you a really big bad apple, you just get religion and feel better because you know that "In this, the best of all possible worlds, everything happens for the best of all possible reasons!" - Prof Pangloss (paraphrased from memory), _Candide_. If there was a being that managed somehow to create this whole mess, what do you think it would care about a smelly little planet out on the edge of one of millions of galaxies? If anything, if it knew what monumental fools most of its inhabitants were, it would be "laughing its head off". "MUST RELY on a HIGHER POWER", pooh sir, I say "pooh". You must rely on yourself and if you can't rely on yourself then you might as well go jump off of the Golden Gate bridge and end it all right now. IF YOU CAN'T RELY ON YOURSELF THEN HOW CAN OTHERS RELY ON YOU? -- Got a gal in Baltimore, li'l Liza Jane, She's the one that I adore, li'l Liza Jane. andy beals, bandy@lll-crg.arpa, {seismo,sun,gymble,mordor,dual}!lll-crg!bandy
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (09/29/85)
In article <873@lll-crg.UUCP> bandy@lll-crg.UUCP (Andrew Scott Beals) writes: >"MUST RELY on a HIGHER POWER", pooh sir, I say "pooh". You must rely on >yourself and if you can't rely on yourself then you might as well go >jump off of the Golden Gate bridge and end it all right now. Come, come, Bandy. There are plenty of people who can't rely on themselves. They are called children. -- God made atheists too. Phil Ngai (408) 749-5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.ARPA
clelau@wateng.UUCP (Eric C.L. Lau) (10/02/85)
In article <873@lll-crg.UUCP> bandy@lll-crg.UUCP (Andrew Scott Beals) writes: > >If there was a being that managed somehow to create this whole mess, >what do you think it would care about a smelly little planet out on the >edge of one of millions of galaxies? If anything, if it knew what >monumental fools most of its inhabitants were, it would be "laughing >its head off". > >"MUST RELY on a HIGHER POWER", pooh sir, I say "pooh". You must rely on >yourself and if you can't rely on yourself then you might as well go >jump off of the Golden Gate bridge and end it all right now. IF YOU >CAN'T RELY ON YOURSELF THEN HOW CAN OTHERS RELY ON YOU? Hold it... In the first paragraph you admit the world is in a mess and that most of us are fools. Then you tell us we have to rely on ourselves or jump off a bridge, i.e. you're telling a lot of us to jump off a bridge. If we and the world are in a mess, and as I believe, getting worse as time goes by, I wouldn't rely on us to "fix it all up". You say in the first paragraph that maybe a "being" created this mess called the world. A bunch of beings did that, namely us, good ol' Homo Sapiens. It probably was a pretty nice and sane place before we messed it up. I don't read net.religion so mail comments, flames et al. Eric Lau ...!ihnp4!watmath!wateng!clelau
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (10/03/85)
>>"MUST RELY on a HIGHER POWER", pooh sir, I say "pooh". You must rely on >>yourself and if you can't rely on yourself then you might as well go >>jump off of the Golden Gate bridge and end it all right now. IF YOU >>CAN'T RELY ON YOURSELF THEN HOW CAN OTHERS RELY ON YOU? > Hold it... In the first paragraph you admit the world is in a mess and that > most of us are fools. Then you tell us we have to rely on ourselves or > jump off a bridge, i.e. you're telling a lot of us to jump off a bridge. > If we and the world are in a mess, and as I believe, getting worse as time > goes by, I wouldn't rely on us to "fix it all up". You say in the first > paragraph that maybe a "being" created this mess called the world. A bunch > of beings did that, namely us, good ol' Homo Sapiens. It probably was a > pretty nice and sane place before we messed it up. [ERIC LAU] I think that what this person WAS trying to say is that it got messed up, not just because we are people who ipso facto by our nature WILL put a world in a messy state (as some people would have it), but that because we have been ingrained with certain attitudes--about relying on a "higher power" for support [AND justification for actions in its name!], about formation of beliefs based on presumptions rather than on thinking and analytically examining, about respect for other people being diminished by superiority notions inherent in some of those beliefs--that inevitably WOULD cause things to get messed if they are perpetuated. Some religions would blame a "Satan" for infesting us with "bad" notions that damage our relationship to the world. But it seems that some of these very religions do the damage themselves with their own notions. The world isn't "messed up" because of some innate human nature that is characterized as "fallenness", "sinfulness", or any other debasive notion of humanity. It's "messed up" because of these notions and attitudes of hate, of perpetuation of shoddy thinking that leads to easier control of people through blind faith and acceptance, of innate racial/ethnic superiority, notions that are promulgated by those same people who claim we need to "rely on a higher power". If this higher power exists, surely it would want us to use the brains we have in the most positive way, and not in the negative ways that mess up a planet. I see no reason to believe that it does exist, yet some feel that, because they see themselves as hopeless/fallen/messer-uppers that it MUST exist. Regardless, the answer lies in our own preconceptions, notions, and attitudes, that perpetuate the messing up of this world. Humanity is not innately evil (as some would have you believe); but too many of us happen to believe in notions that will inevitably lead to the "messing up" that you describe. > I don't read net.religion so mail comments, flames et al. A copy will be forwarded. -- Popular consensus says that reality is based on popular consensus. Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
cjdb@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (Charles Blair) (10/07/85)
> The world isn't "messed up" because of some innate human nature that is > characterized as "fallenness", "sinfulness", or any other debasive notion of > humanity. It's "messed up" because of these notions and attitudes of hate, > of perpetuation of shoddy thinking that leads to easier control of > people through blind faith and acceptance, of innate racial/ethnic > superiority, notions that are promulgated by those same people who > claim we need to "rely on a higher power". This is a good example of shoddy thinking. I don't think Hitler had very much use for reliance on a higher power in the sense meant here, yet I can't think of a better example of a man who promulgated notions of innate racial/ethnic superiority, and for whom blind faith and acceptance--of his followers in him--was an essential "virtue." Indeed, one of the better-known opponents of this man, who paid for his activities with his life, was a parson--Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (10/08/85)
>>The world isn't "messed up" because of some innate human nature that is >>characterized as "fallenness", "sinfulness", or any other debasive notion of >>humanity. It's "messed up" because of these notions and attitudes of hate, >>of perpetuation of shoddy thinking that leads to easier control of >>people through blind faith and acceptance, of innate racial/ethnic >>superiority, notions that are promulgated by those same people who >>claim we need to "rely on a higher power". > This is a good example of shoddy thinking. I don't think Hitler had > very much use for reliance on a higher power in the sense meant here, > yet I can't think of a better example of a man who promulgated notions > of innate racial/ethnic superiority, and for whom blind faith and > acceptance--of his followers in him--was an essential "virtue." No, my friend, it is your article that offers shoddy thinking. I never claimed that religionists represent the SOLE perpetuators of these notions. Nonetheless, those notions are perpetuated by religion, among other things. All the modern perpetuators of those notions (Falwell, IC's, Khomeini, Farrakhan, etc.) are either tied directly to religion (as these examples show) or take their cues from religion, having learned the manipulative skills they use (in such movements as Nazism and other violent nationalistic movements) from religion. -- "I was walking down the street. A man came up to me and asked me what was the capital of Bolivia. I hesitated. Three sailors jumped me. The next thing I knew I was making chicken salad." "I don't believe that for a minute. Everyone knows the capital of Bolivia is La Paz." Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr