bob@itm.UUCP (06/02/83)
"A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind." Pr 18:2
"The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable,
But the mouth of fools spouts folly." Pr. 15:2
"The fool has said in his heart, `There is no God'" Ps. 14:1
"For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire,
And the greedy man curses and spurns the LORD.
The wicked, in haughtiness of his countence, does not seek him.
And all his thoughts are, `There is no God'." Ps 10:3,4
Listen Tim:
"...It is appointed for men once to die and after this comes judgment,"
Heb. 9:27
"And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world,
and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds
were evil." Jn 3:19
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Jn 3:36
Bob Langdon
itm-atlanta gatim@unc.UUCP (06/04/83)
First, anyone who wants to correspond with me can use my mailing address, which is duke!unc!tim. On the other hand, if your intent is to publicly humiliate me, please feel free to post it to the net. I always enjoy humorous entertainment. On to the matter at hand. I understand we now have a Baptist church on the net, site name "itm". Welcome aboard! Since you're newcomers, there are a few things that perhaps should be explained to you. The most important, of course, is that it has recently been demonstrated that quoting the Bible at an unbeliever does nothing except amuse the afore- mentioned unbeliever to no end. Perhaps this is difficult for you to understand, so I'll try putting it in the clearest possible terms. I do not believe that the entire Christian (or Judaic, for that matter) Bible is the infallible Word of God, and I am not in the employ of your Devil, who I do not believe in either. Can you understand that? The reason that I ask is that many Christian's faith is so weak, they cannot even for a second let it slip and see an unbeliever's viewpoint clearly. They are terrified of being sucked into the Abyss if they even consider briefly that someone else might not be playing the same game they are. I do not say this merely as an insult -- it is an honest observation that I have arrived at after long observation of Christians. If you feel I'm wrong, please post a dissenting article. Because of my disbelief in the Bible, the following statements in your article entitled "reply to Tim Maroney" do not have much effect. "A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind." Pr 18:2 "The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, But the mouth of fools spouts folly." Pr. 15:2 "The fool has said in his heart, `There is no God'" Ps. 14:1 "For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the LORD. The wicked, in haughtiness of his countence, does not seek him. And all his thoughts are, `There is no God'." Ps 10:3,4 And so on. It does not shock me that the Bible claims to be true. (Did you think that it would?) However, the claim in itself is nothing. It is as if I had said "The man who lets a deity enslave him is lower Than the most disgusting slug-like organism With a horrible smell, unpleasing to his neighbors, And his brain is made of ca-ca." Gx. 27:4 It doesn't carry much weight, does it? You've got to provide some justification for your statements. This means using your own brain instead of regurgitating "safe" verses. This is probably not taught to you by your religious leaders, but if you just watch the net you'll begin to pick it up. As for the rest of your quotes, which I'll review here, Listen Tim: "...It is appointed for men once to die and after this comes judgment," Heb. 9:27 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil." Jn 3:19 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3:36 Yes, yes, believe it or not I have heard this all before, and it still hasn't made me lose any sleep or control of my excretory orifices. However, I am curious as to what prompts you to try this approach. Are you really so gullible that you believed these incredible claims the first time you heard them? If not, then why do you think I will be? If I weren't such a forgiving guy, I'd think you were deliberately insulting me. That about completes the review. I have no doubt that you will be a valuable addition to the net, provided you take the few minutes needed to try to understand someone else's viewpoint instead of reflexively throwing up the Bible when you feel threatened. Oh yes, one more thing. The subject line "reply to Tim Maroney" wasn't very helpful, particularly since you never said anything about what it was you were replying to. You should make it clear what you're talking about. (Or was it just a reply to my entire existence?) Looking forwards to many happy years of reasonable discussion, I am, Tim Maroney
debray@sbcs.UUCP (06/04/83)
A meta-comment: This newsgroup was created, I believe, to discuss religion. Unfortunately, it seems, by and large, to have degenerated to one where all one hears is name-calling and mud-slinging. Slandering one's opponents has never, in my experience, done much to further an intelligent discussion. So if you find yourselves unable to talk except to attack those who disagree with you, go lose yourself in net.filth, will you? Sure, religion is a touchy subject. But we're grown-ups, and these aren't the middle ages. C'mon, let's show some tolerance, okay? Saumya Debray
sjk@sri-unix.UUCP (06/04/83)
Give us a break! Spouting off Bible verses in a frantic attempt to disuade someone from their present beliefs systems just isn't in the Spirit of Love. And all those verses mean exactly what they mean to each individual, no one in Christ's Spirit would deny someone this freedom of interpretation. Holy books are read at the level which a person is able to accept; some read the Bible as a "Jesus story", others find more subtle truths therein. "He who has ears let him hear". I can counter each and every interpretation with an equally valid one, so what's the use in trying to force one view on everyone? Be real! Blessings to All! scott kramer <sjk@ucbvax, ucbvax!sjk>
pmd@cbscd5.UUCP (06/05/83)
I have to say that I am in agreement with Tim Maroney's response
to the Christian who did nothing but quote Bible verses in
response to something he had written or to the fact that he
exists or whatever.
The verses are true and they may even apply to Tim, but just quoting
them is no reason for any one to really believe they are true.
I have less patience than Tim with Christians who use Scripture
as an invective for unbelievers--and I, also, am a Christian.
Listen my fellow believers:
If you believe Scripture with all of your heart and are convinced
of its truth as the word of God--fine. I am with you. But take
these scriptures as a warning to yourselves and don't try to
use them as darts to humiliate others. Our job is to convince (Jude 22;
I Cor. 9:19-27) not to condemn (Rom. 12:14-21 - read these verses well).
You would do well to study the book of Acts and take note of the
Apostle Paul's presentation of the gospel to the Greeks.
To the Jews, who knew and accepted Scripture, they proved from the
Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ (Acts 2:14-42; 3:11-4:4; 7; 13:15-52;
28:23-29). But when Paul preaches to the Greeks, he doesn't start
with scripture (Acts 14:8-18[esp. vv.15-18]; 17:16-34). Rather he uses
reasoning to show that scripture is true. How do you think he presented
the gospel to the Greeks in the school of Tyrannus? That wasn't a
Bible school where they debated theology! Paul must have
had some pretty good reasoning for them to put up with him for five
hours every day for two years (Acts 19:8-10)!
I know that it takes more than reason to enter into a real relationship
with God (Heb. 11:6). But reason is no handicap either (II Cor. 10:3-6;
I Pet. 3:15). I have seen too many well meaning Christians treat it
like one. Sad to say, Tim's observations are pretty accurate,
to my knowledge. Too many Christians don't bother to think about reasons
for their beliefs and consider the point of view of unbelievers in
communicating the gospel. We need to speak to people where they are at,
right? (Read I Cor. 9:19-27 again) Are we afraid that the God who
who made our minds with their great propensity for doubt ( yes it's
OK for Christians to admit they have doubts) does not have the answers
to our questions, or won't tell us?
If you think you know something, but some non-believer shows you that
you don't, why get defensive about it? If we're going to learn we have
to risk (and admit to) being wrong once in awhile. As Christians we
must acknowledge the universality of truth and not be so wound up in our
own little religious world. As Jeremy Jackson has said in his
recent book "No Other Foundation: The Church Through twenty centuries",
"The trouble with mere religiosity is that it is safely
located in space and time outside the rhythm of life.
The darkened cathedral, the scent-laden atmosphere of
the temple, the esoteric reaches of abstract theology, the
impregnable fortress of private religious sensibility--all
these are ways of separating truth from life. And they all
result in dehydrating that truth whose hallmark is streams of
living water. Christ is a living contradiction to this
mentality: he made his grave with the wicked and as
risen he ate breakfast. There is no "religious" truth. Either
truth is truth or it isn't. And if it is, all life is
involved on the same level. Be circumcized in the heart
as well as the flesh, said Isaiah. "Whatever you do, do
all to the glory of God," advised Paul (1 Cor. 10:31).
The heresy that reflects the human instinct for separating
the "sacred" from the "profane" always pretends you can live
life to the full, religiously and humanly, just so long as
you do not confuse the two realms. Hypocrisy is not a bad
word to describe it.
That's strong stuff, but we ought to face up to it and renew our
thinking. God isn't going to cover for our stupidity and
inconsistency. The only reason to believe Christianity is because
it's true. If it's not, we ought to be the first to step out of
the que. Again, I recognize the limits of
unaided human reason. But lets push it to the limit in our
pursuit of God, Shall we? Cry out to God sincerely that he may
be glorified in every thing we do and provide the wisdom we lack.
Tim may be amused by our ineptness, but God isn't (Romans 2:19-24).
End of sermon.
Paul Dubucjordan@noscvax.UUCP (Martin C. Jordan) (10/24/85)
In article <608@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA> tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >Martin, in religious movements which encourage conformity of belief, >appearance, and behavior, such as fundamentalist Christianity, stereotyping >is not only inevitable but accurate. >-=- >Tim Maroney, CMU Center for Art and Technology >Tim.Maroney@k.cs.cmu.edu uucp: {seismo,decwrl,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim >CompuServe: 74176,1360 My name is Jones. I'm one of the Jones boys. Tim, what makes you so sure of your accuracy? Shall we replace "religious movements" with "cultural movements" and "fundamentalist Christianity" with "YUPPIES" or "hackers" to see if your statement still holds true? Or perhaps substitue "political movements" and "liberal Democrats?" I could continue, but my point is made. Martin Jordan P.S. Could you identify a REAL fundamentalist Christian as you pass him/her on the street by their shoes, ties, hair style or sweat socks?