mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (10/28/85)
[Follow-ups to net.religion, please] In the Christians-And-D&D discussion the question of the improper use of religious symbols came up. One person objected to the way much Christian symbology is "abused" by D&D designers. I see no reason not to extend the discussion to other religious symbology seeing the same sort of usage. The primary system I have played it used a number of occult techniques within the game setting. In particular, there were several uses of the tarot, because a number of us were knowledgable in it. My feeling, based on these experiences, is to treat every occultish thing as if it were real. In the first place, I know no way to exclude the possibility that these things function as claimed on occaision (although I doubt most of them). It is reasonably well-established (I can't cite references but they should be easily locatable) that these things have a lot of psychological power, even such poor tools as the newspaper horoscopes. At one time, a number of researchers substituted randomly selected horoscopes for the normal ones in a newspaper for a period of some weeks. Not suprisingly, the change went unnoticed; what was suprising was the number of 'hits' the random texts produced. I myself believe that most oracles work in the same way. So I treat these things with great respect; whether or not they do invoke the supernatural, they do have power. For the same reason, I am leery of munging religions together. I am somewhat of a student of Taoist thought, and a very little bit of Buddhism. But mix-and-match religion makes my blood run cold. The symbols of other religions, whether they are 'true' or not, nevertheless are powerful, and should be respected. Charley Wingate
credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) (10/29/85)
>At one time, a number of researchers substituted randomly selected >horoscopes for the normal ones in a newspaper for a period of some weeks. >Not suprisingly, the change went unnoticed; what was suprising was the >number of 'hits' the random texts produced. I myself believe that most >oracles work in the same way. So I treat these things with great respect; Sure they do. But they "work" not because they have any "power", but because (1) horoscopes and oracles are written ambiguously, to maximize the number of "hits" and gain a reputation for credibility; (2) people are predisposed to believe in them, and so they interpret whatever happens in a way that gives them validity; and (3) such people are sometimes influenced by the prediction to behave in a way that makes it come true -- e.g. if it is predicted that I will have an automobile accident, and I believe the prediction, my driving will likely become nervous and jerky, and you can guess what will happen. One may argue that these are undesirable effects, but I do not think a Christian can rationally believe that the fault lies in some devil-driven oracle or spell. It lies in human stupidity, gullibility, desperation or misplaced faith.
slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) (10/31/85)
>So I treat these things with great respect; >whether or not they do invoke the supernatural, they do have power. > >For the same reason, I am leery of munging religions together. I am >somewhat of a student of Taoist thought, and a very little bit of Buddhism. >But mix-and-match religion makes my blood run cold. The symbols of other >religions, whether they are 'true' or not, nevertheless are powerful, and >should be respected. >Charley Wingate Actually, that is the reason I DO believe in "munging religions together." All religious symbols and power come from the same place. They all have validity. But some are more useful to a particular person than others. A person needs to use those that are most useful to him/her--whatever tradition they originally came from. And that may include things from several religions for one person. In fact, I would go farther and say that some symbols are more useful at certain times than others. If I am taking a long trip, I may find it best to go by car to the airport, then take a plane, etc. I would not force myself to take the car the whole way just because I started out in it. We should not be afraid to use those symbols, rituals, and practices which advance us on the way. -- Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I march to the beat of a different drummer, whose identity, location, and musical ability are as yet unknown. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (11/01/85)
In article <17027@watmath.UUCP> credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) writes: >>At one time, a number of researchers substituted randomly selected >>horoscopes for the normal ones in a newspaper for a period of some weeks. >>Not suprisingly, the change went unnoticed; what was suprising was the >>number of 'hits' the random texts produced. I myself believe that most >>oracles work in the same way. So I treat these things with great respect; >Sure they do. But they "work" not because they have any "power", but >because (1) horoscopes and oracles are written ambiguously, to maximize >the number of "hits" and gain a reputation for credibility; (2) people >are predisposed to believe in them, and so they interpret whatever >happens in a way that gives them validity; and (3) such people are >sometimes influenced by the prediction to behave in a way that makes >it come true -- e.g. if it is predicted that I will have an automobile >accident, and I believe the prediction, my driving will likely become >nervous and jerky, and you can guess what will happen. So does this not give them a certain power over those who believe in them? >One may argue that these are undesirable effects, but I do not think >a Christian can rationally believe that the fault lies in some >devil-driven oracle or spell. It lies in human stupidity, gullibility, >desperation or misplaced faith. Certainly. But therefore the power is still there; it is simply psychologically derived. Charley Wingate
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (11/04/85)
> My feeling, based on these experiences, is to treat every occultish thing as > if it were real. In the first place, I know no way to exclude the > possibility that these things function as claimed on occaision (although I > doubt most of them). It is reasonably well-established (I can't cite > references but they should be easily locatable) that these things have a lot > of psychological power, even such poor tools as the newspaper horoscopes. > At one time, a number of researchers substituted randomly selected > horoscopes for the normal ones in a newspaper for a period of some weeks. > Not suprisingly, the change went unnoticed; what was suprising was the > number of 'hits' the random texts produced. I myself believe that most > oracles work in the same way. So I treat these things with great respect; > whether or not they do invoke the supernatural, they do have power. [WINGATE] My God, Charles!!! Are you actually close to admitting that the same things you describe might apply to your own beliefs? (Naah, for me to believe that would be wishful thinking... :-) -- Popular consensus says that reality is based on popular consensus. Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (11/07/85)
>>>At one time, a number of researchers substituted randomly selected >>>horoscopes for the normal ones in a newspaper for a period of some weeks. >>>Not suprisingly, the change went unnoticed; what was suprising was the >>>number of 'hits' the random texts produced. I myself believe that most >>>oracles work in the same way. So I treat these things with great respect; >>Sure they do. But they "work" not because they have any "power", but >>because (1) horoscopes and oracles are written ambiguously, to maximize >>the number of "hits" and gain a reputation for credibility; (2) people >>are predisposed to believe in them, and so they interpret whatever >>happens in a way that gives them validity; and (3) such people are >>sometimes influenced by the prediction to behave in a way that makes >>it come true -- e.g. if it is predicted that I will have an automobile >>accident, and I believe the prediction, my driving will likely become >>nervous and jerky, and you can guess what will happen. > So does this not give them a certain power over those who believe in them? Mr. Wingate, could you, by any chance, by any stretch of the imagination, just possibly, be making references to your OWN beliefs with this response? >>One may argue that these are undesirable effects, but I do not think >>a Christian can rationally believe that the fault lies in some >>devil-driven oracle or spell. It lies in human stupidity, gullibility, >>desperation or misplaced faith. > Certainly. But therefore the power is still there; it is simply > psychologically derived. You mean this "simple" statement applies to other people's beliefs in "occult" things. Does it apply equally to yours? Why or why not? Please take the time to answer these questions. -- Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen. Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr