ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey) (10/29/85)
Paul,
Sorry again for doing it this way, but I was at a loss as to how to
get our miscommunication straightened out. I hope this does it. Any
questions you feel that I haven't hit clearly or yoou've been unclear on
what I've been saying, feel free to question me back.
1) How did the damager-God come about? Did he/it evolve? If so where are
the others or was there some big fight? If he/it was created, who created
he/she/it and what about them, who created them, etc.
2) Scenario: You're 12 year old son says he didn't mow the lawn (when you
specifically asked him to) because the damager-God controlled his actions
and made him not do it. He uses the same excuse for taking drugs, stealing
and beating up other kids. How do you answer him?
3) To broaden this last one, how would you deal with a criminal who on the
stand said that he didn't want to kill all those people but the
damager-God made him. How do you punish someone for something they didn't
do or weren't the motivating force behind?
4) Why do we have a Bible that tells people to look for the good, ignore the
evil, be joyful in tribulation, praise God when things go bad, love you
neighbors, treat other people as more important than yourselves when all
these things will make people get along much happier rather than teachings
like go ahead and divorce your wife if you don't like her and if someone
hurts you go ahead and get them back. Why would an evil God write or
inspire a book that teaches people how to live together peacefully?
These are my big three(the criminal one is just an extension of #2). Go ahead
and respond seperately to this and crank away. I'll be looking forward to
seeing if we can get straightened out on making clear what we've answered and
dealt with (or attempted to deal with) and what's still up in the air.
Rick Freyrlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (11/04/85)
> 2) Scenario: You're 12 year old son says he didn't mow the lawn (when you > specifically asked him to) because the damager-God controlled his actions > and made him not do it. He uses the same excuse for taking drugs, stealing > and beating up other kids. How do you answer him? > > 3) To broaden this last one, how would you deal with a criminal who on the > stand said that he didn't want to kill all those people but the > damager-God made him. How do you punish someone for something they didn't > do or weren't the motivating force behind? [RICK FREY] I sure hope Baba is reading this so he can explain to me later how my "assertion" (that there are people who have become more interested in punishment than in the goal that administering punishment was supposed to achieve) is bogus. Why is Mr. Frey so interested in administering punishment if the person DIDN'T DO something or if they weren't the motivating force behind it? Must all "bad" acts be punished? To what end? I don't believe in gods (damager variety or otherwise), I believe in cause and effect, and if people learn to behave a certain way in the course of growing up and exposure to the world, are they "evil"? Worthy of "punishment"? Rick attributes good things to his god, and Paul attributes bad things to his. In reality, there is no god causing either set of things to happen, there is simply the interactions of all the things in the universe, sometimes resulting in "good" things, other times "bad". The evidence points to no consistent willful direction toward a general "good" or "evil". (After all, a good thing to you might be a bad thing to someone else: today's thunderstorm may cause you some temporary or permanent harm, but it helped the farmers who needed the rain.) -- "Mrs. Peel, we're needed..." Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr
ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey) (11/07/85)
In article <2032@pyuxd.UUCP>, rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) writes: >> 2) Scenario: You're 12 year old son says he didn't mow the lawn (when you >> specifically asked him to) because the damager-God controlled his actions >> and made him not do it. He uses the same excuse for taking drugs, stealing >> and beating up other kids. How do you answer him? >> >> 3) To broaden this last one, how would you deal with a criminal who on the >> stand said that he didn't want to kill all those people but the >> damager-God made him. How do you punish someone for something they didn't >> do or weren't the motivating force behind? [RICK FREY] > > I sure hope Baba is reading this so he can explain to me later how my > "assertion" (that there are people who have become more interested in > punishment than in the goal that administering punishment was supposed to > achieve) is bogus. > Scenario 1. The question is how do you answer him, not what punishment do you give him. Scenario 2. Prison and the American criminal justice system. A typical source of examples when dealing with responsibility for action. I'm not focusing on punishment in any way. One of two examples discusses it and prisons/crime is a typical source of examples for questions about moral respon- sibility. I'm with Baha, at least for my own posting. > Why is Mr. Frey so interested in administering > punishment if the person DIDN'T DO something or if they weren't the motivating > force behind it? Must all "bad" acts be punished? To what end? Obviously my point is that if people aren't doing anything (that they can control) or are not responsible for their actions than the idea of punishment as a deterrant to maladaptive behavior if ridiculous. It's the whole idea behind learned helplessness experiments where animals are shocked for cir- cumstances thay can't control. Pretty soon they just quit doing anything and lose the ability to learn an escape path when it is offered to them. Is that what you see as the result of the American prison system? How about all punishment? Do kids in school become helpless lumps or do they learn how to conform their behavior to a socially accepted norm? Good question though about to what end. Punishment ideally brings about a change in behavior that is desirable. Christianity talks about punishment and how it is essential if people are to be accountable for their actions which the Bible claims we are. Except for the final judgement, punishment or trials from God are designed to get us to change our behaviors to the ones God would have us do. > I don't believe in gods (damager variety or otherwise), I believe in cause > and effect, and if people learn to behave a certain way in the course of > growing up and exposure to the world, are they "evil"? Worthy of > "punishment"? Of course not, if behavior is the product of one's environment or one's brain chemistry or God's predestination than there is no hope for change or good outside of what the deterministic force allows. What seems odd to me is that whenever anyone really asks you (general you) to think about there not being free will, why is the first response, "Great, now I can go have some fun" and they list off whatever thing they've been wanting to do but have felt that they shouldn't do. Even in imagining determinism we try to assert our own desires and will. Sorry about that, I didn't want to fall into just assuming free will but those were the only words that conveyed the image I wanted. > Rick attributes good things to his god, and Paul attributes > bad things to his. In reality, there is no god causing either set of things > to happen, there is simply the interactions of all the things in the universe, > sometimes resulting in "good" things, other times "bad". The evidence points > to no consistent willful direction toward a general "good" or "evil". The evidence? > After all, a good thing to you might be a bad thing to someone else: today's > thunderstorm may cause you some temporary or permanent harm, but it helped > the farmers who needed the rain.) > -- Why use something neutral. If you believe it than make it clear. Killing six million Jews might be bad to someone but great for someone else. It's just the interaction of all the things in the universe and the product of societies that were the product of societies before them and it really never started any where before that, it just happened. Hitler didn't do anything, he was just influenced and his behavior was determined for him by the circumstances and environment of 20th century Germany. You or I would have done it in his place. Rick Frey p.s. In case you weren't sure. I disagree with my last paragraph.