arndt@squirt.DEC (03/06/86)
You ask where I got my information about orthodox jews making a symbolic blood sacrifice with a chicken - because both the Talmud and the Torah say 'without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin' and about their identifying the priestly line through family records. I spoke to a Jew who claims to have seen the papers being used to establish the Levitical line from the family records. He also told me of the sacrifices. Afterward, the chicken is given to charity. So that's where I got it. He said it was in Brooklyn. And that young men have been sent to Israel to visit the site (you know where) of the future temple. Does anyone have any close friends in the Jewish Orthodox community in Brooklyn? (such a question?) I'd like to hear about it some more myself. By the way, I am grateful for your response to my posting on the Torah and Tradition. I'm reading it carefully and doing some library work as I get the time. I don't entirely agree - so I hope to learn from you, since you seem to have a handle on the topic, and discuss in a friendly atmosphere. (Picture me bobbing back and forth in front of my terminal.) Satan, I'd like to sit in on a Yeshiva course! You stole my Rabbi story! Only mine went: after G-d (out of respect to your sensibilities) stated who was right there was a hushed silence and the head rabbi said, "We'll vote on it!" By the by, from time to time there have been comments on the nets about my sign off 'keep chargin''. I use it as a way to keep score on the men and the yuppie people. The 'men' interprete it as it is meant - in a military context. The 'yuppies', as usual, always think of their charge cards! Sorry. Very few things are sacred to me. You, if you have been following the Rosen Rubber Chicken Slap Out, will have noticed (some few missed it I know, but we know they could find no good thing in anything I did) that I often lampoon myself - and recently even held up the dear mother of my children to the rude yuks of the common public school mob who seem to be in the majority here on the nets. I am not a reader of Net.rel.jewish. I do not want to cause an uproar in net.religion.jewish. I realize that I do have a sometimes bumptious manner of expression. (We all have our cross to bear.) Agh! I think I did it again! I never know how to approach jews and white people. Without being patronizing, I mean. Should I comment on . . . or just let it go. Sigh. Anyway, I'm not trying to 'prove' anything, just understand why you believe what you do using the same scriptures I do. Watermellon anyone? Keep chargin' Ken Arndt
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (03/12/86)
> You ask where I got my information about orthodox jews making a symbolic > blood sacrifice with a chicken - because both the Talmud and the Torah say > 'without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin' and about their > identifying the priestly line through family records. > > I spoke to a Jew who claims to have seen the papers being used to establish > the Levitical line from the family records. He also told me of the sacrifices. > Afterward, the chicken is given to charity. > I thought this iswhat you were refering to. Let me explain. Before Yom Kippur it is customary ( in some circles ) to say a prayer called Kaparot ( forgivenessess, for lack of a better word ). In the timewhen theTemple stood in Jerusalem sacrifices were offered. There were many types of sacrifice. One was the sin offering. It was given when a person transgressed a sin whose punishment, if thesin was done intentionally, was heavenly excomunication. There were other types of offerings brought when a person transgressed. When a person brought his sacrifice he had to admit publicly to the sin he commited. This admission was part of the repentence process. The person bringing the sacrifice was supposed to see theanimal as taking his place and being killed in his stead. When the temple was destroyed, sacrifce ended. The rabbis instituted prayer in place of animal sacrifice. They based this on an interpretation ofa verse. Before Yom Kippur, somepeople have the custom of saying kaparot, as I said before. Theytakea chicken andswing it over their heads and say that this chicken should be killed and that they should be spared. The chicken is then killed in the usual Jewish way, thereby making it permissible to be eaten. Somepeople have the custom of giving this chicken to the needy. I don't think too many people take this to seriously be a sacrifice. Or that there can be no forgiveness without blood. The chicken is not even killed as part of the ceremony. It is only swung over the head three times. As for family trees. Many people have family trees. Some people have extensive family trees. Since no one can prove the accuracy of his or her family tree to date back 2000 years, these family trees really don't have much validity when it comes to associating a person with any given tribe. Most of the laws which apply to Levites and Priests don't apply now and will only apply when the Temple is rebuilt. When this happens, Eliyahu the prophet, will straighten out everyone's family tree. I don't know how he'll do it but I'll worry about it when he comes. > You stole my Rabbi story! Only mine went: after G-d (out of respect to your > sensibilities) stated who was right there was a hushed silence and the head > rabbi said, "We'll vote on it!" > My story appears in the Talmud, with the ending that I gave. Eliyahu Teitz.