gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) (03/06/86)
I see, even if people espouse policies that are very helpful to the Communists, pointing out that they are helpful to the Communists is a great moral wrong. Where were these people when the Tibetan, Cambodians, Ukranians, etc., etc., etc., were being slaughtered? Frankly, it doesn't matter to me how self-righteous people are, what kind of religious positions they hold, or how hypocritical their rhetoric is. "IN THE NAME OF GOD", what vast hypocrisy. Will it never end? Guy
hijab@cad.UUCP (Raif Hijab) (03/09/86)
In article <707@mtuxn.UUCP>, gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) writes: > I see, even if people espouse policies that are very helpful to the > Communists, pointing out that they are helpful to the Communists is > a great moral wrong. Where were these people when the Tibetan, Cambodians, > Ukranians, etc., etc., etc., were being slaughtered? Frankly, > it doesn't matter to me how self-righteous people are, what kind of > religious positions they hold, or how hypocritical their rhetoric is. > > "IN THE NAME OF GOD", what vast hypocrisy. Will it never end? > > Guy You conveniently refer to Tibet, Cambodia and the Ukraine. At least in Tibet and Cambodia, I am convinced that atrocities, killings and mass movement of populations took place. (I know nothing about the Ukraine, but I also know that the U.S. shares the guilt for what happened to Cambodia. Remember Kissinger and his saturation bombing?) However, you also conveniently forget El Salvador, Chile, South Africa and South Korea, to name a few of the U.S.'s staunch allies with rather colorful resumes. They are staunch anti-communists, good capitalists and the very model of the kind of democracy some in the U.S. would like to export to the world, the model Reagan is bent on reintroducing into Nicaragua.
tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu (Tom Tedrick) (03/09/86)
In article <88@cad.UUCP> hijab@cad.UUCP (Raif Hijab) writes: >In article <707@mtuxn.UUCP>, gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) writes: >> I see, even if people espouse policies that are very helpful to the >> Communists, pointing out that they are helpful to the Communists is >> a great moral wrong. Where were these people when the Tibetan, Cambodians, >> Ukranians, etc., etc., etc., were being slaughtered? Frankly, >> it doesn't matter to me how self-righteous people are, what kind of >> religious positions they hold, or how hypocritical their rhetoric is. >> >> "IN THE NAME OF GOD", what vast hypocrisy. Will it never end? >> >> Guy > >You conveniently refer to Tibet, Cambodia and the Ukraine. At least >in Tibet and Cambodia, I am convinced that atrocities, killings and >mass movement of populations took place. (I know nothing about the >Ukraine, The death toll in the Ukraine was on the order of tens of millions, I believe. >but I also know that the U.S. shares the guilt for what >happened to Cambodia. Remember Kissinger and his saturation bombing?) > >However, you also conveniently forget El Salvador, Chile, South Africa >and South Korea, to name a few of the U.S.'s staunch allies with rather >colorful resumes. They are staunch anti-communists, good capitalists >and the very model of the kind of democracy some in the U.S. would >like to export to the world, the model Reagan is bent on reintroducing >into Nicaragua. I was very sad to read this article. I was beginning to think Raif was someone I could trust to give a fair account of things from a viewpoint I am not familar with. But now he seems to be equating oppressive, brutal, frequently muderous tyrannies with regimes engaging in full scale genocide as a matter of state policy.
gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) (03/11/86)
>In article <707@mtuxn.UUCP>, gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) writes: >> I see, even if people espouse policies that are very helpful to the >> Communists, pointing out that they are helpful to the Communists is >> a great moral wrong. Where were these people when the Tibetan, Cambodians, >> Ukranians, etc., etc., etc., were being slaughtered? Frankly, >> it doesn't matter to me how self-righteous people are, what kind of >> religious positions they hold, or how hypocritical their rhetoric is. >> >> "IN THE NAME OF GOD", what vast hypocrisy. Will it never end? >> >> Guy >You conveniently refer to Tibet, Cambodia and the Ukraine. At least >in Tibet and Cambodia, I am convinced that atrocities, killings and >mass movement of populations took place. (I know nothing about the >Ukraine, but I also know that the U.S. shares the guilt for what >happened to Cambodia. Remember Kissinger and his saturation bombing?) Tricky ol' me. After all, if the Communists would refrain from genocide, I'd find it less 'convenient' to criticise them. The US has responsibility for failing to defeat the Communists in Southeast Asia. The Communists bear all the responsibility for what they did after the war was over. Incidentally, they weren't 'driven' to murder 1/3 of the population by anything the US did. Many of the policies the Khymer Rouge implemented were described years before in the writings of their leaders. I think it is interesting that the US is at fault for what it does, _and_ for what the Communists do. Makes a lot of sense, right? >However, you also conveniently forget El Salvador, Chile, South Africa >and South Korea, to name a few of the U.S.'s staunch allies with rather >colorful resumes. They are staunch anti-communists, good capitalists >and the very model of the kind of democracy some in the U.S. would >like to export to the world, the model Reagan is bent on reintroducing >into Nicaragua. Wait a minute! I didn't say that I liked the current governments of South Africa or Chile. I said that it was hypocritical to complain about what anti-communists do and not about what the Communists do, especially since in many cases the Communist violations of human rights are much more serious. It is also wrong to lump all of those four countries together. Although S. Korea isn't totally democratic, it is vastly more democratic than any Communist country. Got a lot better standard of living and better health statistics than, for instance, N. Korea. El Salvador is gettting better. Also, notice that the stupendous Communist murders don't occur during the war, but _after_ the war is over. It is one thing to lay about with a heavy hand during a war (or a civil war). It's quite another thing to exterminate people by the millions after you have won. Re: The Ukraine. The reason you don't know about what happened in the Ukraine in 1929-1931 is that the so-called moralists who are so concerned with human rights don't want to let you know that during those years the Communist Party of the Soviet Union created an artificial famine in the Ukraine. The usual estimate is that 6 to 7 million people starved to death. Incidentally, the Ukraine produced plenty of grain during those years. It was stolen by the CP-SU. Never heard of it, eh? I guess that's the problem I'm talking about. If everyone knew about this, it might make people think that the USSR is a dangerous country. Of course I'm a fascist. Guy
cs111olg@ucla-cs.UUCP (03/14/86)
In article <724@mtuxn.UUCP> gdf@mtuxn.UUCP (G.FERRAIOLO) writes: >Re: The Ukraine. The reason you don't know about what happened in the >Ukraine in 1929-1931 is that the so-called moralists who are so concerned >with human rights don't want to let you know that during those years >the Communist Party of the Soviet Union created an artificial famine >in the Ukraine. The usual estimate is that 6 to 7 million people starved >to death. Incidentally, the Ukraine produced plenty of grain during those >years. It was stolen by the CP-SU. > >Never heard of it, eh? I guess that's the problem I'm talking about. >If everyone knew about this, it might make people think that the USSR >is a dangerous country. Of course I'm a fascist. Altho' not officially advertized or even admitted, in Soviet Union MOST people know (some remember) the tragedy of Ukraine and lower Volga basin. WHY Soviet Government starved the local population is quite plain and clear. The areas were known to be areas of popular disagreement with policies of collectivization, "trobule makers" and "bandits". Heavily armed raid brigades had combed through the countryside, taking every grain they could find and arresting farmers who had not surrendered their crops voluntarily. Next spring, even the collective farm ("colkhoz") members had trouble finding enough to plant. The confiscations were quite arbitrary and unreasonable. There was a clear evidence that the Government was trying to "break" the people in the area.... 3 years of confiscations, numerous bloody confrontations had "pacified" the land. Ukraine was "broken". So was the rest of the country. All the best and most productive farmers were either dead or "building a better future" on the other side of the Ural mountains.... When the Nazi troops were marching through Ukraine, peasants cheered and threw flowers to the German troops. They were selebrating their liberation. They co-operated willingly and gladly. They thought NOTHING could have been worse than 20+ years of "Dictatorship of the Proletariat". Little did they know..... Oleg Kiselev ucla-cs!oac6.oleg
weemba@brahms.BERKELEY.EDU (Matthew P. Wiener) (03/15/86)
In article <9852@ucla-cs.ARPA> cs111olg@ucla-cs.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev (the student incarnation)) writes: >>>Re: The Ukraine. The reason you don't know about what happened in the >>>Ukraine in 1929-1931 is that [random blame deleted]. >> >>Never heard of it, eh? I guess that's the problem I'm talking about. >>If everyone knew about this, it might make people think that the USSR >>is a dangerous country. Of course I'm a fascist. > >Altho' not officially advertized or even admitted, in Soviet Union MOST >people know (some remember) the tragedy of Ukraine and lower Volga basin. >[rest of the (fine) article deleted] Anyone who wants to learn more about the Soviet Union from the inside should read Alexandr Solzenitsyn _The Gulag Archipelago_. 1700+ pages, it is one incredible eye-opening reading experience. Very depressing and cathartic. His other books are also important and worthwhile reading. ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/UCB Math Dept/Berkeley CA 94720
charli@cylixd.UUCP (Charli Phillips) (03/15/86)
PLEASE, folks, watch your news-groups line! The Ukranian Famine is an interesting point for discussion, but it doesn't belong in net.religion. regards, Charli Phillips