laura@utcsstat.UUCP (07/12/83)
It is difficult to know where brainwashing begins, and teaching ends. If I teach my (theoretical) kids what I feel is true and correct about the world then I am doing the best I can. If this includes respect for the scientific method, then this is a good thing; if this includes a respect for other people such that my children would not approve of slavery even if living in a country which practiced slavery then this is a good thing. Why is it a bad thing when what I believe to be true and correct happens to be a religion? When your children get older they can all come to their own conclusions anyway. Mine are very different from that of either of my parents, for instance. Both of my parents have tired to bring me up according to what they felt was right, which included two (different, but both Christian) religions. I now feel that neither of them is "correct" in their beliefs but I would feel that THEY thought that they were wrong in their beliefs if they had not tried to teach them to me. Of course, religion at our house was not the sort of thing that was only brought out on Sundays and Holy Days, and discussions of the merits of various religions (or various dogma within a religion) was always open ground for discussion. My mother is a staunch supporter of the Catholic Church, which is reasonable, since she honestly believes in this religion. I dont understand how a "believer" could *not* raise their children in their faith, since if is important to him (and for some religious, the religion is the most important aspect of his life) it ought to follow (given his reasoning which included the belief) that it is important for the children as well. Laura Creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura I believe that this discussion about the possible justification for limiting freedoms belongs where it is, in net.philosophy. However, I have also posted this to net.religion. If enough people get upset about the mention of religion we can all move back to net.religion. laura
gordon@uw-june (Gordon Davisson) (08/30/86)
In article <117@omepd> max@omepd.UUCP (Max Webb) writes: >*flame on* >Mr Zimmerman is indulging in what we in the midwest used to call 'bear-baiting'. >the making of outrageous statements (i believe some of them are technically >blasphemy - i know it doesn't bother him) in order to enrage his opponents in >debate. Used to do it myself. Keep talking, dude; someday you may regret this >endless stream of contempt for One, whom, no matter what you claim, has some >chance of existing and being righteous. >*flame off* I don't think Paul should be too worried. If God either doesn't exist or doesn't control what happens to us after death, the issue is rather moot. Even if God does exist and control the afterlife, all Paul's done is examine the evidence available to him (incomplete and inconsistent as it is), and reach what he thinks is the most reasonable conclusion about God based on it. If he's wrong, and God is a reasonable fellow, then why would a reasonable God want to punish him for that? On the other hand, if God is egotistical, petty, and vindictive enough, He probably will subject Paul to eternal torture. The question Paul faces in this case is which is more important to him: his comfort, or his integrity. He would seem to have chosen the second, and I must applaud his bravery in doing so. (Um, well, ok, maybe he's not quite as brave as all that. With a God like that, Paul's not likely to escape torture just by knuckling under and worshipping... A God like that's likely to torture him anyway, because his skin's the wrong color, or he has a funny accent, or he puts on his shoes in the wrong order. Or even just because his great-to-the-N'th grandparents once disobeyed Him by eating an apple... So since he probably doesn't have anything to lose, why not stand up for what he believes in?) I have a question for you, Max: Why do you worship God? Is it because you think he's an All Right Guy (or some stronger version therof), or because you're afraid of what he might do to you if you don't worship him? If the latter is the case, I must say that I find Paul's term 'whorshipper' singularly appropriate. -- Human: Gordon Davisson ARPA: gordon@uw-june.ARPA UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon Bitnet: gordon@uwaphast There are no physicists in the hottest parts of hell, because the existance of a 'hottest part' implies a temperature difference, and any marginally competent physicist would immediately use this to run a heat engine and make some other part of hell comfortably cool. This is obviously impossible. -- Richard Davisson
max@omepd (Max Webb) (09/01/86)
In article <> gordon@uw-june.UUCP (Gordon Davisson) writes: >In article <117@omepd> max@omepd.UUCP (Max Webb) writes: >>*flame on* >>Mr Zimmerman is indulging in what we in the midwest used to call 'bear-baiting'. >Even if God does exist and control the afterlife, all Paul's done is examine >the evidence available to him (incomplete and inconsistent as it is), and >reach what he thinks is the most reasonable conclusion about God based on >it. If he's wrong, and God is a reasonable fellow, then why would a >reasonable God want to punish him for that? Either you haven't read my reply to gary, or it hasn't reached you. The implication was not that Paul is headed to hell. The implication is that his viewpoint might change and he might regret this game of 'bearbaiting'. After all, i find it hard to believe that Paul really believes that God exists as the 'damager god'. If at some time, he should change his mind about the existence of a good God, and arrive at a different understanding of the motives attributed to Him in the bible, then paul will regret the fact that he has poured out screen after screen of namecalling of God. As i posted in my reply to Gary, i doubt if there is 'regret' in hell. Regret, on some level, implies repentance, and repentance implies the presence of God in the conscience, whereas Hell is simply the eternal version of life without God. I suspect, that in hell there will not be regret, but self-justification and the kind of name-calling of God. >On the other hand, if God is egotistical, petty, and vindictive enough, He >probably will subject Paul to eternal torture. The question Paul faces in >this case is which is more important to him: his comfort, or his integrity. >He would seem to have chosen the second, and I must applaud his bravery in >doing so. I would say that Paul seems to have chosen an effective way of attacking christians, by slandering something they love, more than their church, more (if they are christians) than themselves. I wonder if that isn't the real reason for his posting - to arouse the response - rather than a real belief in the sadism of God. I understand the motive - as i clearly stated, i used to do it myself. >I have a question for you, Max: Why do you worship God? Is it because you >think he's an All Right Guy (or some stronger version therof), or because >you're afraid of what he might do to you if you don't worship him? If the >latter is the case, I must say that I find Paul's term 'whorshipper' >singularly appropriate. >Human: Gordon Davisson Ignoring the personal attack, i worship him the same way i draw near to a fire when i am cold. He is the source of all life and truth. To hate him is dry up and die, to cut off your own source of life. And that is why it is so meaningless to talk about God arbitrarily throwing people into hell. When i stay out of the sun, why does the sun punish me by taking my tan away? Here, in time, we have a choice, because things/people change. In eternity, nothing changes. So if you go out filled with hate and closed off to God He has no way to help you - you shall have to starve without Him forever. Max
ins_akaa@jhunix.UUCP (Ken Arromdee) (09/03/86)
>>>Mr Zimmerman is indulging in what we in the midwest used to call 'bear-baiting'. >>Even if God does exist and control the afterlife, all Paul's done is examine >>the evidence available to him (incomplete and inconsistent as it is), and >>reach what he thinks is the most reasonable conclusion about God based on >>it. If he's wrong, and God is a reasonable fellow, then why would a >>reasonable God want to punish him for that? > >Either you haven't read my reply to gary, or it hasn't reached you. The >implication was not that Paul is headed to hell. The implication is that >his viewpoint might change and he might regret this game of 'bearbaiting'. >After all, i find it hard to believe that Paul really believes that God exists >as the 'damager god'. I find it hard to believe that Jesus was actually God or was born of a virgin. But I am aware that other people do hold the belief even though I consider it absurd, and I do not assume that anyone who claims to hold that belief doesn't really believe it. This is known as "religious tolerance". Why don't you seem to tolerate Paul's? > >I would say that Paul seems to have chosen an effective way of attacking >christians, by slandering something they love, more than their church, more >(if they are christians) than themselves. I wonder if that isn't the real >reason for his posting - to arouse the response - rather than a real belief >in the sadism of God. I understand the motive - as i clearly stated, i used >to do it myself. Here we go again. If Paul believes what he is saying, he isn't "slandering" anyone. It seems as though you are projecting your own motives on someone else; just because you used to do it yourself for selfish reasons doesn't mean that everyone else who does the same thing does it for the same reasons. >Ignoring the personal attack, i worship him the same way i draw near to >a fire when i am cold. He is the source of all life and truth. >To hate him is dry up and die, to cut off your own source of life. It sounds as though you are saying that if you hate God, you will die. Please clarify this; I have no idea what you're really trying to say here. -- Kenneth Arromdee | | BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM, INS_AKAA at JHUVMS -|------|- CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET -|------|- ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA -|------|- UUCP: {allegra!hopkins, seismo!umcp-cs, ihnp4!whuxcc} -|------|- !jhunix!ins_akaa | |