slg@ukma.UUCP (Sean Gilley) (08/28/86)
There has been a lot of discussion recently about whether or not
Hell is simply an alienation from God, or whether it is an actual
punishment.
Charles Hedrick quotes a number of people and sermons and seems to say
that it is an alienation from God. He uses II Thess. 1:9 (mistakenly
called I Thess 1:9) in at least two of these arguments. This verse
reads:
``They will be punished with everlasting destruction and
shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty
of his power''
The arguments he presents say that the punishment is God's being
unhappy with you and the fact that you an then forever away from the
presence of the Lord.
Sorry. It doesn't work that way. The Bible explicitly states that there
will be those in eternal physical agony. Try Revelation 14:10-11:
``He will be tormented with burning sulfer in the presence of
the Holy Angels and the Lamb.''
or Revelation 20:15:
``If anyone's name was not found in the book of life he was
thrown into the lake of fire.''
or (even more explicitly) Revelation 16:10-11:
``...men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of
Heaven because of their pains and their sores...''
Now, you're going to read these passages and *still* tell me that the
unrepentant sinners will not suffer eternal tortures and agony?
Sean.
(All references are from the Gideon Bible, 1975 ed., copyr 1978.)
---
Sean L. Gilley Phone: (606) 272-9620 or (606) 257-8781
{ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!cbosgd!ukma{!ukgs}!slg, slg@UKMA.BITNET
I've seen a thousand people kneel in silence
I've seen them face the rifles with their songs
And I always thought that we could end the killing
But now I live in fear that I was wrongGIZ@PSUVM.BITNET (09/04/86)
Well, I would not put much store in Revelations. I treat the Bible as an
editted account of folks who could write describing things they heard from
those who were illiterate.
Hell IS Earthly consciousness separated from the Supreme Deity
and being dead is no excuse for past actions...it's just a waiting period
to be reborn into life.
When you achieve awareness of the Father and be united, you will no longer
require a body. Suffering is an element of material existance that is not
dominant in God-realized masters (include : Jesus, Babaji, Sri Yukteswar,
Paramahansa Yogananda, and so on...).
Hell is in you as well as Heaven.
-------
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curt@hoptoad.uucp (Curt Mayer) (09/06/86)
In article <4257@ukma.UUCP> slg@ukma.UUCP (Sean Gilley) writes: > >There has been a lot of discussion recently about whether or not >Hell is simply an alienation from God, or whether it is an actual >punishment. > >Charles Hedrick quotes a number of people and sermons and seems to say >that it is an alienation from God. >... >The arguments he presents say that the punishment is God's being >unhappy with you and the fact that you an then forever away from the >presence of the Lord. > >Sorry. It doesn't work that way. The Bible explicitly states that there >will be those in eternal physical agony. Try Revelation 14:10-11: > > ``He will be tormented with burning sulfer in the presence of > the Holy Angels and the Lamb.'' > >or Revelation 20:15: > > ``If anyone's name was not found in the book of life he was > thrown into the lake of fire.'' > >or (even more explicitly) Revelation 16:10-11: > > ``...men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of > Heaven because of their pains and their sores...'' > >Now, you're going to read these passages and *still* tell me that the >unrepentant sinners will not suffer eternal tortures and agony? >(All references are from the Gideon Bible, 1975 ed., copyr 1978.) but you forget that saint john the mushroom-head was coming down from a rancid margarine trip when he wrote those immortal words. can you say symbol? i knew you could. in revelation, there are oodles of stuff that are obviously symbolic, but you decide to draw the line here to try to scare the bejeezus out of 7 year olds in sunday school. I am firmly convinced that jesus of nazareth was a happening kind of guy that had a kind heart and got nailed to a tree. on the other hand, paul was a nasty shit who twisted the words of a good man to his economic and egotistical advantage and he didn't even do that well enough to avoid getting kilt. the first 4 books of the New Testament make me feel warm and good, but the last of them are just totally transparent scare tactics. curt ----- Bleeding head good, healed head bad.
kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) (09/10/86)
In article <1062@hoptoad.uucp> curt@hoptoad.UUCP (Curt Mayer) writes: >In article <4257@ukma.UUCP> slg@ukma.UUCP (Sean Gilley) writes: >> >>There has been a lot of discussion recently about whether or not >>Hell is simply an alienation from God, or whether it is an actual >>punishment... > >can you say symbol? i knew you could. in revelation, there are oodles of >stuff that are obviously symbolic, but you decide to draw the line here >to try to scare the bejeezus out of 7 year olds in sunday school. > >I am firmly convinced that jesus of nazareth was a happening kind of guy >that had a kind heart and got nailed to a tree. > >on the other hand, paul was a nasty shit who twisted the words of a good man >to his economic and egotistical advantage and he didn't even do that well >enough to avoid getting kilt. > >the first 4 books of the New Testament make me feel warm and good, but the last >of them are just totally transparent scare tactics. > > curt There are a lot of books in the new testament that make me feel "warm and good" and others that scare me because they show the power or the "fear" of God. God is definitely a powerful and just God, and I think it is important to recognize that fact. The Bible is instruction for man. Life isn't one big warm fuzzy. There are many things to learn that are difficult, painful, and often downright scary. Being a Christian doesn't change that. But being a Christian guaranteesthat we will not suffer eternally. The same book, Revelations, that scares the "7 year olds" also provides a beautiful description of what heaven is in Chpt.21"Behold the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be his people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and they shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away. Paul in the new testament tries to guide and provide instruction for Christians, not all his teachings and writings are intended to make one feel "warm and good. But in Thessalonians 4:13, 14 Paul says: "But we do not want you to be uniformedbrethren about those who sleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who haveno hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." When Paul talks about sleep here it is a *symbol* for death as in Dan. 12:1 "and many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awaken, these to eternal life." In death the body "sleeps," but the spirit lives whether Christian or non-Christian. Thus Paul is simply laying out all the information, not just the positive. He makes it clear that there are alternatives and choices to be made. There is an excellent story in the Bible which describes a rich man in hell asking Moses to tell his family (on earth) about what hell is like so that they will know before it's too late. Moses tells the man that they have already been told, it is in the Bible and in their conscience. They know, and nothing he can do would change their minds. They need to choose. So Curt, I think that there are definitely some scary things in the Bible that should make the reader think twice about what he/she is reading, especially about the matter of death. Billy Graham in a recent book wrote: "The torturing, tormenting fear of death is a condition that is perfectly normal for anyone who has never come to Christ. Death is an experience from which people instinctively shrink. Yet for the Christina the fear is removed. He has the assurance that the sins for which he would be judged have been dealt with, whereas the non-Christian has no such assurance. I do not look forward to the prospect of dying, but I do look forward to death itself. It will be a glorious release. It will be the fulfillment of everything I have ever longed for. The Scriptures says, 'In Thy presence is fullness of joy. At Thy right hand there are pleasures evermore' (Ps. 16:11)."