wex@ittvax.UUCP (Alan Wexelblat) (08/16/83)
Here's a switch: I want to disagree with Paul Torek on one of his latest points, thereby agreeing with Tom Craver. From Paul: ...I maintain that some things (e.g., pleasure) are valuable per se; one need not consider the "relation" of pleasure "to some human" -- if there is such a relation -- to see that it is good. Pleasure is good because of the nature of the experience alone. Well, not really. Think this though: pleasure is either an abstract concept, or it is something concrete. If pleasure is an abstract concept, then you may define it as "that which is valuable to humans," or some other circular definition. But then what will you say about ascetics who deliberately deny themselves pleasure? Obviously they do not value it. Similar problems will arise if you try to relate "pleasure" to something more concrete. Obviously we do not want to identify 'pleasure' with that-which-causes-pleasure, since the latter varies wildly from individual to individual. So let us define 'pleasure' as some brain state. Now we can say that people who desire 'pleasure' desire to be in some brain state. But this leads to three separate problems: 1) The ascetics, again. 2) How can you say that a brain state is "intrinsically valuable" when that brain state probably varies from person to person? And what of non-human sentients? Should a human brain-state be of any intrinsic value to them, especially if their brains are different from ours? 3) Let us assume that we know that if we electrically stimulate certain portions of the brain, the "pleasure state" will occur, regardless of other stimuli. Would you then wish to be hooked up to a mchine that simply supplied the appropriate current? How long would you like to be there? Do you think that your answers to these questions will be the same as anyone else's answers? --Alan Wexelblat decvax!ittvax!wex
larry@grkermit.UUCP (Larry Kolodney) (08/17/83)
"But then what will you say about ascetics who deliberately deny themselves pleasure? Obviously they do not value it." Ascetics, like hunger strikers, are denying themselves pleasure for something they value higher than it. That doesn't mean they don't value it at all. The whole point of Asceticism is that you are denying yourself something which you crave.-- Larry Kolodney {linus decvax}!genrad!grkermit!larry (ARPA) rms.g.lkk@mit-ai