esk@wucs.UUCP (10/13/84)
I am unclear as to whether Peter Crames is disagreeing with me or is simply taking the opportunity to make a point of his own. Either way, I have some comments. From: ptc@cybvax0.UUCP (Peter Crames) > All movement, including our thoughts and actions, can be traced back to > God's First Cause, also known as the Big Bang. We (and the universe) > can be viewed as a machine programmed by God. > A machine is a physical object which moves according to God's laws > of cause and effect, with no will of its own. If this is a *definition* of a machine -- i.e. nothing can be considered a machine unless it has no will of its own -- then I accept it. But I point out that in order to apply this definition, ONE MUST KNOW BEFOREHAND whether something has a will of its own. > A machine can not cause itself to move. Technically, this is not correct, even given the above definition. But if this statement is intended merely as repeating that a machine has no will of its own, then I accept it, subject to the warning above. > Since our brains are machines, we can not cause our own thoughts and > actions. I don't grant this. The word "since" has it completely backwards: if "machine" is *defined* as having "no will of its own", then THAT SOME- THING IS A MACHINE CAN NOT BE EVIDENCE that it has no will of its own. The evidential relation must proceed in the other direction. Moreover, we do in fact cause our own thoughts and actions. It is true that we are not their *original* cause, but this fact is irrelevant to the issue of freedom. (It may be relevant to *your* point, just not mine.) > Our thoughts and actions are caused to us by God. This may be true as far as I know; certainly if God exists God causes everything that happens. Yet God and I may *both* be said to cause my action. That is, there is nothing in the concepts of action or cause that rules out an action's having two or more agents. > My use of the word 'machine' here is not meant to connote anything > bad, nor is it meant to detract from the beauty of the universe. Good. --Paul V Torek, ihnp4!wucs!wucec1!pvt1047 Please send any mail directly to this address, not the sender's. Thanks.