[net.philosophy] Continuous Struggle

williams@kirk.DEC (John Williams 223-3402) (03/16/85)

	A good definition of the differences between determinism 
and free will is as follows:

	Your mind is said to have free will because there is no 
known way to hold a detailed description of the processes that 
comprise it. That is, you are unable to construct an adequately 
accurate model of your mind in your mind.

	Something is called deterministic when you are able to 
carry out a simulation to a reaonable degree of accuracy.

	Thus, it becomes impractical to view the mind 
deterministically. It quite simply does not have the capacity to 
store an accurate model of itself. It quite simply can not carry 
out a simulation that is accurate for the next five minutes, let 
alone the next five years.

	And I haven't even begun to touch upon the uncertainties 
of the open environment in which the mind resides. There is no 
means of taking enough into account.

	In other words: The resolution of the types of things we 
may say about the mind is still rather vague. I think you will 
find that it isn't so much that free will is necessary for 
intelligence, it is that free will is more apparent in 
intelligence. That is, free will may be used as a rudamentary 
measurement of intelligence, having some form of scaled value.
That is, the more complex and unpredictable something is, the 
more intelligent it is.

	Free will and determinism are not states. They are 
opposite extremes of with all objects contain some aspect of 
both. It is an illusion of your mind that creates the seperation 
of these two characteristics into discrete states. Your mind 
balks at the concept of continuous attributes.


	Ah, you will have to consider the meaning of the word
" is ", and how it's meaning changes when refering to open or 
closed environments. Next you will have to consider the 
meanings of " open " and " closed ". Next you will have to 
consider the meaning of the word " meaning ". It involves 
circular reasoning, and the only relief from this is that as you 
gain resolution, this circular reasoning expands, sometimes 
fooling the mind into believing that it isn't actually circular 
at all. The temptation, during the ignorance of not knowing the 
circularity of the reasoning, is to think the universe has
" states ". A state is in actuallity only a tool of the mind to 
enable the mind to percieve things more deterministically, which 
has value. As you increase your resolution, you are able to 
percieve more " states ", possibly further than quantum 
mechanics.

	I am now open for questions.

					John Williams

friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (03/18/85)

In article <1099@decwrl.UUCP> (John Williams 223-3402) writes:
>
>
>	A good definition of the differences between determinism 
>and free will is as follows:
>
>	Your mind is said to have free will because there is no 
>known way to hold a detailed description of the processes that 
>comprise it. That is, you are unable to construct an adequately 
>accurate model of your mind in your mind.
>
>	Something is called deterministic when you are able to 
>carry out a simulation to a reaonable degree of accuracy.
>
>	Thus, it becomes impractical to view the mind 
>deterministically. It quite simply does not have the capacity to 
>store an accurate model of itself. It quite simply can not carry 
>out a simulation that is accurate for the next five minutes, let 
>alone the next five years.
>
>	And I haven't even begun to touch upon the uncertainties 
>of the open environment in which the mind resides. There is no 
>means of taking enough into account.
>
>	In other words: The resolution of the types of things we 
>may say about the mind is still rather vague. I think you will 
>find that it isn't so much that free will is necessary for 
>intelligence, it is that free will is more apparent in 
>intelligence. That is, free will may be used as a rudamentary 
>measurement of intelligence, having some form of scaled value.
>That is, the more complex and unpredictable something is, the 
>more intelligent it is.
>
	But it has already been pointed out that free will is *not*
the same as unpredictability.  I go to the same place every Thur.
night - I am predictable in this regard, but I go because I *chose*
to do so over a year ago. That is I am predictable because my choice
was made *before* you began observation.  Free will does *not* mean
that I must make each decision at the same time as the action, I
cna, and often do, make the decision ahead of time, in which case
my behavior is predictable, but still free.
-- 

				Sarima (Stanley Friesen)

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