gam@amdahl.UUCP (G A Moffett) (03/21/85)
> PS How do you *know* (whee!) there is no free will? How does a 'thing' > with no free will *know* ANYTHING!!!! Isn't free will part and parcel of > consciousness??? Else what's the difference between a chemical reaction > and your *knowing* something? No, I don't think free will is coexistent with consciousness, but we are using slipery words.... I guess you mean "self-consciousness", as distinct from the consciousness that non-human animals have. This is a rather special state of awareness (awareness of self), which I am not fully clear on; that is, I'm not sure that self- consciousness implies free will. Sorry. I'm not omniscient. However, I believe that there is no difference between a chemical reaction and "knowing" something. Certainly this is an amazing chemical reaction (whatever it is), but I don't belief my body operates outside physical laws, known or otherwise. This denial of free will is also my philosophical reaction against the self-deism that we humans sometimes practice. I don't understand why being human -- a particular kind of animal -- makes me *SO* different from other animals. Yes, I am a clever animal, and I have the ability to recall many more things than other animals and (probably most important) I am far more adaptable than any other animal. I can even be self-aware. But does this mean I am endowed with special properties, like free will, that other animals lack? (And are other animals really not self- aware?). Why is biology deterministic and (human) behavior not, then? (I'm sure I have as many questions as you do). -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!gam
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (03/27/85)
In article <1321@amdahl.UUCP> gam@amdahl.UUCP (G A Moffett) writes: > >However, I believe that there is no difference between a chemical >reaction and "knowing" something. Certainly this is an amazing >chemical reaction (whatever it is), but I don't belief my body >operates outside physical laws, known or otherwise. > You are making an assumption here, that is: "free will implies not-natural". This is unwarrented, since there is disagreement about what free-will *is*, you cannot assume it implies supernatural causation. The problem, as I see it, is that a statement like "knowledge is a chemical reaction" is a *process* level statement, but a statement like "I have free will" is a meaning level, or philosophical statement, and they are thus *independent* of one another. It is possible to believe both, one, or neither of them and still be logically consistant. As a matter of fact I believe both of them! -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen
ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) (04/03/85)
> (...) I don't believe my body operates outside physical laws, > known or otherwise. (...) I don't understand >why being human -- a particular kind of animal -- makes me *SO* >different from other animals. Yes, I am a clever animal, and >I have the ability to recall many more things than other animals >and (probably most important) I am far more adaptable than any >other animal. I can even be self-aware. But does this mean >I am endowed with special properties, like free will, that >other animals lack? (And are other animals really not self- >aware?). >Why is biology deterministic and (human) behavior not, then? > >Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!gam (1) Biology is NOT DETERMINISTIC, for many reasons, one of the most obvious being that quantum mechanics, upon which biology is based, is not deterministic either. (2) Nobody has ever demonstrated that animals lack self-awareness or free will, nor does it seem possible to demonstrate that such conjectures are either true or false. On the other hand, the biological structures of animals are remarkably similar to ours, as is their behavior, just as you pointed out. Therefore (barring divine revelation) I can see absolutely no reason to believe that the differences between humans and nonhumans are other than differences of degree. (3) Sorry, I cannot really answer the question of whether or not YOU have free will, except as a matter of faith. Since I believe that I have free will, I suppose that I believe that you have it as well. The same remark applies, in varying degrees, to animals as well. -michael `A cenna dona Druidib ocus dona filedaib' ellis