esk@wucs.UUCP (Paul V. Torek) (04/10/85)
Lines beginning with > are from gam@amdahl.UUCP (G A Moffett) > Yes, I believe that there is no free will. But I am also a > reasonably moral person, I fret about decisions like everyone > else, and I judge people by the way they act -- all just as those > [who] believe free will exists. Actually I think those actions show that you *do* believe you have free will -- *in the original, primary sense of the term*. Namely, in the sense in which free will = self-control by evaluation of options, AND ***NOT*** = a "ghost in the machine". The false association of free will with "ghost in the machine" stems from our religious tradition and is supported by overzealous "debunkers" like Rosen. (If Rosen can tie down the concept of agency with the metaphysical baggage of "ghosts in machines", he can kill two birds with one stone -- never mind the fact that the tie is illegitimate.) Lines beginning with < are from friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) < [In reply to Gordon Moffett] < You [Gordon] are making an assumption here, that is: < "free will implies not-natural". This is unwarrented, < since there is disagreement about what free-will *is*, < you cannot assume it implies supernatural causation. < Sarima (Stanley Friesen) EXACTAMOONDO!!! Yes -- there IS intelligent life on Usenet! Thanks, I needed that -- I was beginning to think Laura Creighton and I were the only ones who saw this point. -- "Who do you call?" "ICONBUSTERS!" Paul V. Torek, Iconbuster-in-Chief
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (04/16/85)
In article <880@wucs.UUCP> pvt1047@wucec2.UUCP (Paul V. Torek) writes: [In reply to Rich Rosen] >Actually I think those actions show that you *do* believe you have >free will -- *in the original, primary sense of the term*. Namely, >in the sense in which free will = self-control by evaluation of options, >AND ***NOT*** = a "ghost in the machine". The false association of >free will with "ghost in the machine" stems from our religious tradition >and is supported by overzealous "debunkers" like Rosen. > It is, in my mind, made even *more* illegitimate by the fact that our religious tradition of a "ghost-in-the-machine" is a result of an improper fusion of Greek philosophy(Gnosticism) and Judaeo-Christian scriptures. If you look into the *original* meaning of the word "soul" in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures you will find it meant essentially the emotional and conceptual basis for behavior, that is, essentially what a Freudian psychoanalyst would call the "ego"(I think - or perhaps the "id"). Thus a soul in the true Biblical sense is not the *source* of free-will it is in fact a *result* or expression of it! In other Rosen has it backwards! -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen