[net.philosophy] Ellis on my positions

rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dr. Emmanuel Wu) (04/28/85)

>  A) freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior
>     causes or divine intervention
>  B) the belief that man's choices ultimately are or can be voluntary, and
>     not determined by external causes
>     
>     (B) was generally selected as the topic of discussion.
> 
>     The indomitable Rich Rosen has argued more ferociously than most.
>     His argument seems to run, roughly:	
> 
> 	If you have free will, the `agent of choice' must either reside
> 	within the physical world, or without.
> 
>     1)If the agent of choice resides within the physical universe, then it
> 	is just a bunch of chemicals. But chemicals have no power to decide
> 	which course they take:
> 
> 	...since their behavior is fully determined. { LATER AMENDED TO: }
> 	...since their behavior is fully determined by biochemical equations
> 	up to quantum randomness, after which behavior is nondetermined
> 	rather than chosen by an agent.

Not "later amended to".  I never implied a "fully determined state" at 
any point.  The word "determined" by the way, may erroneously imply some
form of "determiner", which I also find no reason to believe in.

>     2) If the agent of choice does not reside in the physical world, then
> 	it is an external agent. QED.
> 
> 	{Furthermore a `ghost-in-the-machine', in turn, must have some
> 	 mechanism itself that causes it to decide, thus, it does not
> 	 have free will}
> 
>     Rich, have I represented your arguments accurately?
> -michael

Aside from the comment above, yup.  Any comments from Mr. Torek?
-- 
"Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end."
						Rich Rosen   pyuxd!rlr