flink@umcp-cs.UUCP (Paul V. Torek) (07/12/85)
In article <1190@pyuxd.UUCP> rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) writes: >>>In any case, external causes would refer to the actions of the physical >>>world as having an effect on the mind or brain [...] > >> But those cause-and-effect chains go *through* the man (his sensory >> system, his ratiocinations, etc.) and thus are *NOT* EXTERNAL to the >> man! So your argument fails. [TOREK] > >No, on the contrary, because of that my argument succeeds. BECAUSE (as you >admit here) the cause-and-effect chains go through "the man", as you say, >the actions of "the man" are dependent upon those chains, internal AND >external, and that violates the definition of free!!! A cause of behavior is not strictly external if it operates through "man" and his "volition". The DIRECT causes of intelligent behavior are INTERNAL to "man" and "volition", even if those causes have in turn other causes which are external. Examples of unfree behavior are: being forcibly dragged where you don't want to go, being locked behind bars and thus confined, etc. In all these examples the DIRECT cause of the behavior is external to the man and his volition, THAT is what makes them unfree. Conversely, when the direct causes are internal to "man's volition", the behavior is free. --Paul V Torek, umcp-cs!flink
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/20/85)
> A cause of behavior is not strictly external if it operates through "man" > and his "volition". The DIRECT causes of intelligent behavior are INTERNAL > to "man" and "volition", even if those causes have in turn other causes > which are external. However, once you admit that they do... GOTCHA!! Ain't no "freedom". This "you", or "man", or "volition" you speak of. How did it get to be the way it is? By "choice"? > Examples of unfree behavior are: being forcibly > dragged where you don't want to go, being locked behind bars and thus > confined, etc. I find that my body "forces" me to go where I "want" to go, to do what I "want" to do. I have no choice, I can't stop it!! Help!! :-) > In all these examples the DIRECT cause of the behavior > is external to the man and his volition, THAT is what makes them unfree. > Conversely, when the direct causes are internal to "man's volition", the > behavior is free. Help!! I can't escape my own "volition"!! I want to want to do other things, but I just can't. I want to want to like apricots. But I can't. Help! :-) -- Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts. Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr