bees@drutx.UUCP (DavisRB) (05/23/84)
27-Mar-84 12:25:32-CST,1344;000000000000 Return-Path: <@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA:ERIK@SRI-AI.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 12:25:27-CST Received: from SRI-AI.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 09:30:04-PST Date: Tue 27 Mar 84 09:31:59-PST >From: ERIK@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Re: Disk naming + copying To: CAULKINS@USC-ECL.ARPA cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "CAULKINS@USC-ECL.ARPA" of Tue 27 Mar 84 07:35:37-PST The Finder now has a 50K buffer, worst case, which means that a 400K disk should be copyable in 8 swaps (16 insertions), + a swap to get back the boot disk. There will also be a single-drive-copy utility which will use a 100K buffer (including the screen) which allows a disk copy in 4 swaps (8 insertions). For copying a small number of files, the Finder will be better, however. For example, copying four 10K files can be done in as little as one disk insertion. JEP's note about Mac not being a good business machine will be obsoleted by the external disk drive. Since I'm at Apple, I've had a Mac and an external drive for quite a while now, and backing up is trivial. Why all the negative stuff, JEP? Still living in the S100 world? Please go and try one--I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, if you approach it with an open mind. Bruce (Erik@SRI-AI) ------- 27-Mar-84 13:19:59-CST,786;000000000000 Return-Path: <@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA:mike@rice.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 13:19:57-CST Received: from rice.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 11:07:55-PST Received: by rice.ARPA (AA02181); Tue, 27 Mar 84 13:03:12 CST Date: Tue, 27 Mar 84 13:00:02 CST >From: Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA> Subject: Re: Jerry E. Pournelle To: info-mac@sumex-aim.ARPA Message-Id: <mike.518@Dione.rice> I usually try to avoid public ad hominem remarks, but does everybody else find JEP as obnoxious as I do? Honestly, Jerry, we heard all the Mac prefix jokes we're likely to need already. Please try and use the real English language from here on out. Just because advertising people don't use it is no excuse for us not to. 27-Mar-84 18:05:26-CST,4258;000000000000 Return-Path: <@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA:MOBERLY%hp-thor.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 18:05:19-CST Received: from csnet-relay by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 14:31:41-PST Received: by csnet-relay via xhp-labs; 27 Mar 84 17:19 EST Received: by HP-VENUS id AA16391; Tue, 27 Mar 84 12:38:34 pst Message-Id: <8403272038.AA16391@HP-VENUS> Date: Tue 27 Mar 84 12:39:54-PST >From: MOBERLY%hp-labs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Macintosh stuff at the 9th West Coast Computer Faire To: info-mac%sumex-aim.arpa@csnet-relay.arpa Cc: moberly@csnet-relay.arpa Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Macintosh stuff at the Ninth West Coast Computer Faire ----------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition to books on Macintosh for sale at the Ninth West Coast Computer Faire, several other Macintosh and Lisa related products were on display. It seems reasonable to assume that many Lisa related products will be converted to work with Macintosh. Hardware -------- Tecmar demonstrated both a ten Mbyte fixed winchester disk system and a dual five Mbyte removable winchester disk system (the obvious fixed/removable combination is also in development). Each system was connected to Macintosh via one of the serial ports. Both are expected to be available by fall and cost slightly over $2K. They announced print buffer and an HPIB-to-AppleBus converter products, but no firm information. Several Apple Macintosh external disk drive preproduction prototype drives were seen, but none were for being sold. Several manufacturers (Apple, TNW, Hayes, etc.) demonstrated 300 and/or 1200 baud modem products with MacTerminal. The Artsci demonstrated their MacPhone product (touchtone, two phone lines, auto dialing, hold button, rate timer, etc.). They said it was completed and awaiting FCC approval. Software -------- Several retail/wholesalers were selling Microsoft's MacBasic and Macintosh Multiplan. Several developers demonstrated programs using Instant Pascal (looks fairly fast although the windows may actually make it harder to use). MacProject (very impressive) and MacTerminal were show by various vendors. Creative Solutions was selling MacForth (level one for $149 and level two for $249). It looks good as a product, but the cost of right-to-execute license may limit potential markets. A version of Creator/Reporter for the Macintosh was demonstrated at the Workman & Associates booth. Creator is a public domain data base program generator for Microsoft Basic while Reporter is a report program generator. Penguin Software demonstrated a version of Transylvannia for the Macintosh (Apr84 $34.95). They announced that Graphics Magician Picture Painter, The Quest, and The Coveted Mirror would be released by summer. Sir-Tech demonstrated a version of Wizardry for the Macintosh (available soon) and mentioned that several other games which they may convert. Parenthetically, most of the interesting animation affects on the Apple II were accomplished via page-flipping between the high resolution screens. Is there any way to change the start of the displayed memory in Macintosh? Is this technique necessary in Macintosh for animation effects? Artsci mentioned that they will probably convert their Magic Office System to run on Macintosh. Videx demonstrated their Desktop Calendar (notebook, appointment book, alert, tickle file, calendar, etc.) for the Lisa 2 Office System. One of their people indicated a Macintosh version was in development. Macintosh Development Team -------------------------- The following booths had Macintosh Development Team posters indicating that they have a least some level of interest in developing Macintosh related products: Apple Sir-Tech Creative Solutions Penguin Software Hayden Books International Apple Core Dilithium Press Call-Apple Waveform Softalk FTL Pterodactyl Artsci TNW Central Point MacWorld ------- 27-Mar-84 18:46:14-CST,1517;000000000000 Return-Path: <@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA:STERNLIGHT@USC-ECL.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 18:46:12-CST Received: from USC-ECL.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 27 Mar 84 16:25:02-PST Date: Tue 27 Mar 84 16:25:12-PST >From: STERNLIGHT <STERNLIGHT@USC-ECL.ARPA> Subject: Re: Jerry E. Pournelle To: mike@RICE.ARPA, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA cc: STERNLIGHT@USC-ECL.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Mike Caplinger <mike@rice.ARPA>" of Tue 27 Mar 84 15:01:47-PST The thing about Pournelle, whose remarks in general, it seems to me, sometimes reflect lack of information (it`s called being both positive and wrong), is that on the Mac he has, it seems to me, turned nasty. It is my opinion that many of his remarks seem to reflect a lot of anger. Why he should be angry, and at whom isn't clear. As long as he confines it to this bulletin board, each of us can filter what he says through our own opinions. When he starts to put some of the content in his column, he can be damaging. I believe there's something going on; I live near him and offered to let him look at my copy of 'Inside Macintosh' and answer any technical questions(I am an Apple registered developer), giving him my phone number and offering to make myself available at his convenience. He never took me up on the offer, and is still spouting what I see as emotional anti-mac stuff. I dunno, Marty, what do you want to do tonight? --david-- ------- 28-Mar-84 11:55:34-CST,2884;000000000000 Return-Path: <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 11:55:26-CST Return-Path: <POURNE@MIT-MC> Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 00:16:01-PST Date: 28 March 1984 03:17-EST >From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE @ MIT-MC> Subject: Jerry E. Pournelle To: STERNLIGHT @ USC-ECL cc: info-mac @ SUMEX-AIM, mike @ RICE In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 27 Mar 84 16:25:12-PST from STERNLIGHT <STERNLIGHT at USC-ECL.ARPA> ReSent-date: Wed 28 Mar 84 09:04:02-PST ye flinking gods. LOVE ME, I am APPLE, and you MUST LOVE ME! Anything less than total devotion shall be punished. Tell me, MacSir: if I am a business man and I put together a large and important financial model, how shall I save it? How back it up? How many swaps? And if I wish to DO SOMETHING USEFUL, with what do I macDo It? I am getting damned tired of the MacHype, and especially the kind of crap represented by your comments about my "emotionalism". Anything less than total devotion to the Mac is, I gather, punishable. One does not question the Good Guys. Well, we have bought a Mac for 3000 bucks, and the documents that explain the error codes and such like for another 150; which is why I had no need to take you up on your macoffer, and besides, I didn't need another dose of machype about how macwonderful it is. I have yet to get a logical answer to the question of what the computer for the rest of us can DO just now. True: if they can sell enough of them, then the software may appear (assuming the deliberate limits to the machine such as the soldered in 128 k of memory and the single drive and the keyboard with no escape key and no arrow keys and the non-available numeric keypad (not available at our store anyway, and unimportant; I presume it will come) -- assuming the inherent limits don't stop the software, then if they sell enough of htem it will get written. A neat job. Like a Hollywood movie. Go to the star and say you have the script; to the director and say you have a star; to the writer and say you have a director; to the money people and say you have star, script, and director; and with luck you will have made it all retroactively true. If you do not bring it off, well... So Apple treats its customers as venture capitalists, and that's all right; but then they will not listen to any suggestions (you cannot imagine how many PLEADED with them to add another drive, or at least have the extra drive avaialable when it came out) and to keep the price at something reasonable is not within their intent. Are those facts? Then if it were not an apple product -- if it were IBM -- would you condemn anyone for wondering what all the shouting is about? Ye immortal gods. Do you wash your own brains, or do you take them to a laundry? 28-Mar-84 12:30:54-CST,1256;000000000000 Return-Path: <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 12:30:51-CST Return-Path: <POURNE@MIT-MC> Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 00:21:29-PST Date: 28 March 1984 03:22-EST >From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE @ MIT-MC> Subject: Macintosh stuff at the 9th West Coast Computer Faire To: MOBERLY%hp-labs.csnet @ CSNET-RELAY cc: info-mac @ SUMEX-AIM, moberly @ CSNET-RELAY In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 27 Mar 84 12:39:54-PST from MOBERLY%hp-labs.csnet at csnet-relay.arpa ReSent-date: Wed 28 Mar 84 09:04:13-PST 1> the Development Team Seminar was useless. More information has been in BYTE than Apple gave at the seminar. 2> Bruce Tonkin wrote the Creator program in his P-basic (which is a preprocessor to microsoft basic). It was about the only application software for Mac I saw other than the two microsoft (multi plan and basic) products. I had not known Bruce put Creator in public domain. I believe my copy carries a copyright notice. It's not here just now so I can't check. 3> there is a problem with using the data base: namely that saves are slow and backup copies are slow to make. But it does work, and it's fairly impressive. 28-Mar-84 12:54:46-CST,1645;000000000000 Return-Path: <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 12:54:42-CST Return-Path: <edhall@rand-unix> Received: from rand-unix by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 00:27:52-PST Date: Wednesday, 28 Mar 1984 00:16-PST To: Jef Poskanzer <Poskanzer.PA@PARC-GW.ARPA> Cc: Mike Caplinger <mike@RICE.ARPA>, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Subject: Re: Jerry E. Pournelle In-reply-to: Your message of 27 Mar 84 11:34:02 PST (Tuesday). >From: edhall@Rand-Unix ReSent-date: Wed 28 Mar 84 09:04:30-PST I wish people would follow the editor's advice and keep ``Is the MacIntosh a useful/bogus machine'' discussions off of INFO-MAC. They are a bit like the anti-UNIX flames that occasionally erupt in UNIX-WIZARDS, and generates no more useful information. As for Jerry Pournelle, I would hope that someone who has been around as long as he has would have a bit more respect for the purpose of this list: information, not innuendo. The jury is still out as to what kind of technological advance the Mac represents (if any). Right now, those of us with Macs and those of us preparing for Macs want hard data, to see just what we can get this beastie to do. Six months from now we'll all know just how successful our efforts have been. If you want to argue the relative merits of the MacIntosh as compared to the IBM-PC or the IMSAI 8800, do it in INFO-MICRO where such discussions are more appropriate. Or even better, bite your tongue for a while until the dust clears. -Ed Hall The Rand Corporation 1700 Main St. Santa Monica, CA 90406 (213) 393-0411 28-Mar-84 13:23:52-CST,4028;000000000000 Return-Path: <PATTERMANN@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 13:23:29-CST Return-Path: <POURNE@MIT-MC> Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 28 Mar 84 00:48:59-PST Date: 28 March 1984 03:50-EST >From: Jerry E. Pournelle <POURNE @ MIT-MC> Subject: Disk naming + copying To: ERIK @ SRI-AI cc: info-mac @ SUMEX-AIM, CAULKINS @ USC-ECL In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 27 Mar 84 09:31:59-PST from ERIK at SRI-AI.ARPA ReSent-date: Wed 28 Mar 84 09:25:28-PST When (Real Soon Now) you can GET the external drive (and how much will that cost?) I will be glad to act as if Apple is selling a two-drive systm. At the moment, for completely unfathomable resons--certainly no one has ever given me a logical explanation other than that by saving some money Apple can pass the savings along to their stockholders, just like IBM does-- the Macintosh is a single drive system. When the software is out, and the second drive is out, and the extra memory is installed, you are probably talking about a $4000 package. It may be that for that price there is no competitive system, but I thnk I do not _a priori_ accept that. If the systems documents came with it, one might be able to decide what you could REALLY do with the Mac; but in fact the "development seminar" at the Faire was a , well, I won't say joke, but the kindest words I heard were "waste of my time" (this from a Mac enthusiast). Thus: I don't know whqt you can do with a Mac other than buy a Lisa-2 to keep it company. Lord knows this is a clever deal for Apple; Lisa sales were not very good, so perhaps the Mac can do something to remedy the situation. None of this is reprehensible. However, I see no reason to pretend that Apple has joined the ranks of the public benefactors, or that we should view this marketing strategy any differently from the way we would view it if IBM or DEC had adopted it. If IBM had come out with a proprietary operating system, every editor in this field would be screaming at them. The MacIntosh divides the micro community; there is not even a way to get source code onto it (except through a Lisa). The documents that come with it do not explain the error messages you can get by what seem reasonable operations. Thgere are several ways inadvertantly to lose text or pictures ( we lost the pretty picture of the fish when I cut instead of pasted). I can do four to six page illustrated memos with a Mac. Or with a Flair. The worst is that there exists a terrific operating system, more or less derived from the dame place that Apple got the ideas for Lisa and Mac. It's the PUBLIC DOMAIN Modula-2 operating system that uses mouse, has integral debugger and real time windows, and does provide a programmer's dream working environment; not only does Macintosh not seem to have made any attempt to interface with that, but I have some evidence that there's not enough information given to allow that to be done. I want to see the MAC dragged, kicking and screaaming if need be, into the micro world so that it can be source code compatible with text filters, formatters, index systems, editors, and other stuff; why must we always reinvent the wheel? But I see little chance of that. And the name of that game is MacProfit. When IBM brings out a proprietary operating system, and isolates their customers from the rest of the micro world. will Apple cheer? (Probably; it also gives Apple a safe niche?) I know that every time we are divided, we give another rachet to IBM. Theeffect of the Mac may well be to do that again. WHY COULDN"T IT HAVE MADE SOME PRIVISION FOR SOME COMMUNICATIONS WITH THE REST OF THE MICRO WORLD? WHY COULDN"T IT HAVE HAD A , if not standard, then at least not DELIBERATELY UNSTANDARD keyboard? And so forth. And why must I regard all these trends as if they were handed down from on high, so that it is the Sin Against the Holy Spirit to question them? -------