abc@BRL.ARPA (Brint Cooper) (10/10/86)
Tamir Weiner asks whether to update or keep is Apple II+ and 'live in 1979.' What about us? My wife has an Apple IIe, 2 drives, RS-232 board and printer interface, also a printer. She owns this machine for compatibility with her professional environment. She is a public school teacher of children in Grade 4. Her school is about to get a 'computer laboratory' consisting ultimately of 12 Apple IIe machines connected via a 'network.' The master machine will have mass storage from which programs will be downloaded to the other 11. Five of these already have their own floppy drives and can, thus, stand alone. Are 8-bit machines obsolete? Should our schools throw out their Apple IIe investment for "larger" machines. Public school systems are never at the cutting edge in anything. Educators are generally conservative, and local government is least likely of any level to put new and expensive items in its budgets. Perhaps our existing machines are not as "obsolete" as the industry would have us believe. If they still do useful work for us, are they obsolete? In my work, I have access to Goulds and Vaxen of every description. Soon, that will include a Cray XMP-48 and, next year, a "Cray 2 class" machine. We have a second telephone line at home so that I have unlimited access to this 'stable.' A SUN workstation at home would be wonderful! But we have a IIe and a couple of CP/M machines. They do what we need. Tamir, if one were purchasing his/her first computer, I'd not recommend a IIGS or anything less than a Mac/Amiga/PC-AT level machine. But you have a computer; so do I. The question for both of us is: What do we want to do at home that our present hardware won't do? What's the cheapest/easiest/quickest way to get that capability? If your II+ connects you to a state-of-the-art machine somewhere else, you're hardly living in 1979! Brint
UMFORTH@WEIZMANN.BITNET (Tamir Weiner) (10/10/86)
After the flurry of //gs reviews and info, the occassional comparison to the Mac and/or the Amiga, I wish to put this question out there on the net for anyone who thinks they have a constructive, or merely creative answer. I have an Apple II+ with extra memory, modified keyboard, two standard floppies, and a plain vanilla color monitor (w/o an 80 column card). I used to use the thing heavily for programming, correspondence (word processing), reports when I was still a student, relaxation (i.e. games) I learned a lot from the old clunker, and got introduced to the world of computers courtesy of the Apple's oldest creation and certainly the best micro of its day. I laid out tons of money to get in on the game in the late 70's but haven't regretted the decision for a second. But now... These days I work professionally in a computer related profession. I write documentation and do some layout design for technical publication for a living. For this my company supplies a MacIntosh. For work and a bit of fun, I also dabble using a variety of VAXen, and an IBM mainframe as well. Much of the fun is realted to telecommunications. These days, my II+ helps me telecommute from home a bit, and is used for some personal correspondence, and personal finance stuff, but not much more than that.... So what does one do with a personal micro that is fairly dated, but still useful. Do I buy various cards (80 column card, co-processor cards, etc.) to keep my machine somewhat up to date? or do I sell/give away the old faithful and get up the cash to go the //gs route, or an Amiga, or even a Mac if I feel rich. The guys at work spend nearly every coffee break/lunch hour debating what micro to buy and it's always a toss up between an Amiga and an Atari 1040st. (very few non-business users here in Israel can afford the Mac with its high oveseas markups). The //gs hasen't hit the market yet, we'll see if she enters the running. I'm really up in the air about starting an affair with a fancy multi-tasking, speed demon game machine, or just curling up with my II+ and enjoying playing old games, using it as a connection to the mainframe, and living blissfully in 1979. What does one do?..... If I wait for a few more years, I can donate my II+ to the local science museum and go out and buy a $700.00 special micro-micro with a minimum configuration of 16 Megs of RAM, 100 Megs of optical read/write storage, virtual memory as well as multi-tasking, full standard multiple windowing built into the operating system, basic 2000 X 2000 pixels bit mapped color graphics on a 1 inch flat color screen display -- which all of course will fit into my briefcase, and run forever on solar cells. Or I can take the plunge today, put up with buggy operating systems, constant new releases, multi-tasking, 600 X 400 bit mapped color graphics and have fun today rather than wait for another N+1 number of years for that super dream system. Who votes to buy today, and the hell with virtual memory and read/write optical disks that fit in your pocket!??
ag0@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Jenkins) (10/13/86)
In article <8610102141.AA08083@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, abc@BRL.ARPA (Brint Cooper) writes: > > Tamir Weiner asks whether to update or keep is Apple II+ and 'live in > 1979.' > > What about us? My wife has an Apple IIe, 2 drives, RS-232 board and > printer interface, also a printer. She owns this machine for > compatibility with her professional environment. > > She is a public school teacher of children in Grade 4. Her school is > about to get a 'computer laboratory' consisting ultimately of 12 Apple > IIe machines connected via a 'network.' > Are 8-bit machines obsolete? Should our schools throw out their Apple > IIe investment for "larger" machines. 8-bit machines should never become obsolete for elementary education. Since they will come down in price soon, they will be ideal. These machines have been satisfying serious programmers and businesses for years and still do. They should be more than sufficient to introduce 12 year-olds to the world of computing. > Perhaps our existing machines are not as "obsolete" as the industry > would have us believe. If they still do useful work for us, are > they obsolete? Good point. > Tamir, if one were purchasing his/her first computer, I'd not recommend > a IIGS or anything less than a Mac/Amiga/PC-AT level machine. But you > have a computer; so do I. The question for both of us is: What do we > want to do at home that our present hardware won't do? What's the > cheapest/easiest/quickest way to get that capability? > > Brint More good points, however the question is also about whether it is better to upgrade or buy new. I own an Apple //e and would not dream of selling it. Unfortunately, continuous upgrades bring with them the risk of incompatability. If I had a choice between upgrading my //e to a mac class computer, or buying a mac for $500-$1000 more, I would save my pennies and buy the mac (actually, I can't stand mac's, it is present in this missive for illustrative purposes only!!). It is important to remember that you may need new capabilities later on and you need to guarantee that you don't have to spend even MORE on the upgrade to get the capabilities you should have gotten with the first. The important points here are to consider what you NEED or WANT and if your present system supports those needs then hang on to it. On the other hand, if you require more than what you have now, (like multitasking or large data base applications) I would seriously consider buying new. By the time you have invested in all the upgrades, you may have spent enough to buy new AND guarantee compatibility. Colin
ranger@ecsvax.UUCP (Rick N. Fincher) (10/16/86)
> In article <8610102141.AA08083@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, abc@BRL.ARPA (Brint Cooper) writes: > > > > Tamir Weiner asks whether to update or keep is Apple II+ and 'live in > > 1979.' > > > > What about us? My wife has an Apple IIe, 2 drives, RS-232 board and > > printer interface, also a printer. She owns this machine for > > compatibility with her professional environment. > > > > She is a public school teacher of children in Grade 4. Her school is > > about to get a 'computer laboratory' consisting ultimately of 12 Apple > > IIe machines connected via a 'network.' > > > Are 8-bit machines obsolete? Should our schools throw out their Apple > > IIe investment for "larger" machines. > > 8-bit machines should never become obsolete for elementary education. Since > they will come down in price soon, they will be ideal. These machines have > been satisfying serious programmers and businesses for years and still do. > They should be more than sufficient to introduce 12 year-olds to the world > of computing. > > > Perhaps our existing machines are not as "obsolete" as the industry > > would have us believe. If they still do useful work for us, are > > they obsolete? > > Good point. > > > Tamir, if one were purchasing his/her first computer, I'd not recommend > > a IIGS or anything less than a Mac/Amiga/PC-AT level machine. But you > > have a computer; so do I. The question for both of us is: What do we > > want to do at home that our present hardware won't do? What's the > > cheapest/easiest/quickest way to get that capability? > > > > Brint > > More good points, however the question is also about whether it is better to > upgrade or buy new. I own an Apple //e and would not dream of selling it. > Unfortunately, continuous upgrades bring with them the risk of incompatability. > If I had a choice between upgrading my //e to a mac class computer, or buying > a mac for $500-$1000 more, I would save my pennies and buy the mac (actually, > I can't stand mac's, it is present in this missive for illustrative purposes > only!!). It is important to remember that you may need new capabilities later > on and you need to guarantee that you don't have to spend even MORE on the > upgrade to get the capabilities you should have gotten with the first. The > important points here are to consider what you NEED or WANT and if your present > system supports those needs then hang on to it. On the other hand, if you > require more than what you have now, (like multitasking or large data base > applications) I would seriously consider buying new. By the time you have > invested in all the upgrades, you may have spent enough to buy new AND > guarantee compatibility. > > Colin Why not upgrade your //e, keep the motherboard (they can't keep so your spare parts, you paid for them when you bought your //e) buy a cheap case and have the best of both worlds, and two machines to boot [pun intended :-)]? This way you are 100% certain of compatibility and you get a //gs too. Rick Fincher ranger@ecsvax
ag0@k.cc.purdue.edu (Colin Jenkins) (10/21/86)
In article <2140@ecsvax.UUCP>, ranger@ecsvax.UUCP (Rick N. Fincher) writes: > > More good points, however the question is also about whether it is better to > > upgrade or buy new. I own an Apple //e and would not dream of selling it. > > Unfortunately, continuous upgrades bring with them the risk of incompatability. > > If I had a choice between upgrading my //e to a mac class computer, or buying > > a mac for $500-$1000 more, I would save my pennies and buy the mac (actually, > > I can't stand mac's, it is present in this missive for illustrative purposes > > only!!). It is important to remember that you may need new capabilities later > > on and you need to guarantee that you don't have to spend even MORE on the > > upgrade to get the capabilities you should have gotten with the first. The > > important points here are to consider what you NEED or WANT and if your present > > system supports those needs then hang on to it. On the other hand, if you > > require more than what you have now, (like multitasking or large data base > > applications) I would seriously consider buying new. By the time you have > > invested in all the upgrades, you may have spent enough to buy new AND > > guarantee compatibility. > > > > Colin > > Why not upgrade your //e, keep the motherboard (they can't keep so > your spare parts, you paid for them when you bought your //e) buy a > cheap case and have the best of both worlds, and two machines to > boot [pun intended :-)]? This way you are 100% certain of compatibility > and you get a //gs too. > > Rick Fincher > ranger@ecsvax Nice idea, Rick, but last year I inquired about the //e upgrade to the enhanced version. The dealer refused to sell me the upgrade kit. They insisted that they had to install it themselves and that they would have to keep the chips that came out of my //e (specifically the roms). I said to heck with that! I already paid for my //e once, and they expected me to pay for the upgrade also, but they STILL wanted *MY* chips. I assumed that Apple's policy concerning upgrades was still just as offensive. Can you really keep your old motherboards?? By the way, I was pretty offended by Apple's policy concernig //e -> enhanced upgrades. I understand that I do not own the copyrights on the roms, but I DO own the roms. I did pay for them after all. Anyone else out there have an opinion? Colin