bmcjmp (02/16/83)
I am female. Back in college I had a number of male friends who were just that: friends. Not dates, lovers, or what have you, just guys I hung around with. One evening I was out with a bunch of people, and two of these male friends and I were having a candid conversation about sexual matters. At some point in this conversation one of them cracked a dirty joke. One of the other women who was with us heard us laughing and wanted to know what was so funny. The man who made the joke mumbled something about mixed company, to which the woman replied, "How come you always tell Barb those jokes, but you never tell me?" His answer was, "Well, Barb is about as much like one of the guys as you can get without being one of the guys." First let me say that this statement was not predicated on physical appearance, since this other woman and I are about equal in that department. With this in mind, how would you react to such a statement? Do you think it would be a compliment to you? To men, I ask, does whether you are talking to a man or woman make a difference in what you talk about or how you say something? Why or why not. I don't know if anybody will consider this important, but I'm tired of pressing the "n" key on the abortion debate (I argued myself out on that one back in high school). Hopefully this will generate a different topic for discussion. If not -- well, I tried. Barb Puder burdvax!bmcjmp p.s. If there's any interest, I'll let the net know how I took that statement. If I tell you now, it would probably kill a lot of discussion.
leichter (02/17/83)
Yes, the audience does make a difference in what jokes or stories I'd be willing to tell. There are jokes I think are funny that might offend some people. That doesn't stop me from telling them - WHEN (1) there is no one around who might be offended (2) I'm pretty sure the people who ARE there will take it in the spirit that it is told - as a funny thing arising out of a stereotype, not as an accurate description. I would not tell a racist joke to a black or to a racist - unless, in the case of the black person, I knew him well enough to understand how he would take it. Similarly, I might feel offended if I overheard an anti-white or anti-Jewish joke, but not if someone I knew well told it. Many women are offended by sexual jokes. It isn't my role to judge whether they are right to take such offense or not; I simply consider it common good manners not to offend people. So, I won't tell such jokes in "mixed company". That does NOT mean I won't tell them to women or in the presence of women - provided the two constraints I mentioned are met. -- Jerry decvax!yale-comix!leichter
paulina (02/18/83)
I, too, have often been 'one of the guys'. I generally take this as meaning that the men I associate with are so comfortable with me as a person that they are not constantly thinking of me as a 'woman'. However, there have been contexts in which I have been VERY insulted by similar comments. For example, when I was in college a (male) friend of my parents was talking about how he, as an employer, preferred to hire women for dull, repetive jobs because their minds were better suited for that type of task. He felt that women didn't need to have jobs which were as interesting. When I expressed my extreme frustration over my summer job (in a local bucket factory), he said : but you are different. you have the mind of a man. It still makes me mad to think about it.
jss (02/19/83)
yes, and have you ever been 'complimented' by someone saying "You drive like a man"? Yuch. judith
jfw (02/22/83)
"But you're just like one of the guys..." "But you're different. You have the mind of a man." It seems to me that these statements are not similar, even in their mental topology. The first is expressing a sense of belonging, the second is stating an assumption that men and women have completely different minds, except for those who have the "wrong" mind. Context is not merely something used to provide a cover for a silly statement. Context provides *meaning*. As far as taking things as a compliment or not, the first statement is clearly intended as a reward for having become part of a social circle, whereas the second is indicating that the person's accomplishments, in effect, are "not her fault".
bernie (02/22/83)
In answer to Barb Puder's question about whether "mixed company" makes any difference to me, the answer is a qualified "no". I don't censor myself based on whether the people around me are male or female, I just make a point of not saying anything shocking in front of people I feel are prudish. I've heard more raunchy jokes from women than from men, so generalizing on the basis of gender seems silly. Some people (notably those in Elmira, Ontario) are more prudish than others, regardless of gender.
geo (02/24/83)
Women who hear "compliments" like, "you think just like a man", have my full sympathy. I think I can really identify with you. It reminds me of discussions I have had with feminists around here. The feminists will be sitting around, saying "Patriarchy this, Patriarchy that, Patriarchy the other thing". I feel very uncomfortable with this kind of talk, and sometimes I will say something. Generally, in the most tactful way I know how, I say, "well, you know, \I'm/ a man." To which my friends respond by putting their hand on my arm, or something like that, and saying "Oh no Geo, when we talk about \men/, we don't mean \you/! I mean, we've heard what you say. You're a Feminist!" I hate hearing this. While I am all in favour of the mundane tenets of Feminism, there are a number of aspects to it that I just can't swallow. I feel really co-opted when my friends say this to me. I get the feeling that what they are really telling me is, "Oh no Geo, when we talk about \men/ (those brute beasts), we don't mean you. I mean you do all the right things. You never get angry with us. You never interrupt us. You say the right things. Why you are a (provisional, probationary, second class) Feminist, and we will continue to consider you a Feminist, rather than a brute beast, so long as you continue to toe the line." So I think I can understand how women might feel infuriated by being told that they thought like men, or something like that. I guess I have raised the issue of what it means to be a man who is sensitive to the tenets of Feminism. It is a really tough question, and I am interested in hearing what other people on the net think about it. However, I don't think that discussion belongs here. Whem mts@houxo started this group, she planned for it to provide a forum to support women. It would be discourteous to clutter her group with material of no interest to the originators of the group. So, if you wish to respond, post to me, or to net.misc. I will be prepared to summarize. I am prepared to count votes for the formation of a group to discuss issues like this (net.sex-roles(?)). Cordially, decvax!watmath!watarts!geo Geo Swan Integrated Studies University of Waterloo
cly (02/25/83)
Here's what I TRY to do with both men and women (although I admit I'm more sensitive towards women's feelings due to Affirmative Action, Women's Liberation, etc.): Before I use potentially offensive language, I wait for clues from the other person. If I get none, I don't use that language. Clues might be the other person's use of the language first, their reaction to someone else's use of language, or direct statements about what they prefer. I have had a new woman friend use a particular word and then say, "pardeon my language". I replied with, "that's O.K., I use it myself". This took care of the problem neatly. I said I TRY to do this. Now and then I f**k up. Carl Yaffey cbosgd!cly
naomi (03/07/83)
#R:burdvax:-56700:ubc-medgen:5600004:000:486 ubc-medgen!naomi Feb 18 09:51:00 1983 I think it's great being "one of the guys" as long as when you do want someone for love and romance, he doesn't consider you "one of the boys" as well. Men and women do have different experiences (as categories as well as individuals) and one way to clue in to the male experience is to have a group of friends who will talk to you as if you were male. Note: All references to male persons above can be changed to references to females, and the conclusion, in my opinion is the same.