cindym (02/28/83)
If you people are as appalled as I am about some of these opinions calling abortion murder and would like to help fight to keep abortion safe and legal, please read on. The National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) has affiliates in most of the states. The organization is a lobbying group that supports women's right to choose. 80% of the people in the US are pro-choice but as you can see from this newsgroup, the anti-choice folks are quite vocal. If you would like to help, please look up your state affiliate and call for information. I am on the state board of the Oregon affiliate and can give information about it. Cindy McMeekin Tektronix tektronix!tekmdp!cindym
ljw (03/02/83)
I am interested in knowing where Cindy McMeekin gets her information that 80% percent of Americans are pro-choice. Her status on the NARAL board makes requires that her figures be taken with a grain of salt. According to the Associated Press (which is, as far as I know, officially non-biased on the subject), their surveys show that (quoting from last Saturday's Fort Worth Star-Telegram) "On abortion, surveys find that 73 percent want it limited to certain cases or banned". Perhaps her (and many other persons) belief that abortion is so popular is due to the fact that the same article stated that, of the 104 key people who decide what we see on television, 97 percent believe a woman has a right to decide for herself about having an abortion. The point of the newspaper article was that television executives were not showing to americans an unbiased view on subjects such as abortion, homosexuality, religion, etc. From now on, before you throw out numbers, explain where you get your figures from. I personally feel the arguments about abortion are useless. The two viewpoints start off with two different presuppositions. Anti-abortionists (who are not "anti-choice", just "anti-abortionist") believe that the human fetus is a human being, and thus subject to the laws of the constitution (including the right not to be murdered), whereas pro-abortionists believe that the human fetus is not a human being, and thus the woman is free to deal with this "thing" attached to her as she sees fit. What I'm interested in knowing is: Has anybody done any tests to prove or disprove whether or not a fetus is a human being? I don't mean just the congressional arguments, but real live unbiased (if there is such a thing) laboratory tests. It seems to me, that until the results of such tests are in, we should give the fetus "the benefit of the doubt" and not allow abortions, just in case it actually is murder.
gh (03/09/83)
Okay, let's agree with trsvax!ljw that:
... Anti-abortionists (who are not "anti-choice", just "anti-abortionist")
believe that the human fetus is a human being, and thus subject to the
laws of the constitution (including the right not to be murdered), whereas
pro-abortionists believe that the human fetus is not a human being, and
thus the woman is free to deal with this "thing" attached to her as she
sees fit.
and also that:
On abortion, surveys find that 73 percent want it limited to certain cases
or banned.
The question then is:
What can we say about these people who want abortion "limited to certain
cases"
These people clearly believe the fetus is not human, or they could not justify
abortion in cases of rape, mother's life in danger (versus certain death for
the fetus), etc. When Cindy McMeekin says that 80% of Americans are
pro-choice, what she really means is that 80% favor some cases of abortion,
and therfore must not believe the fetus to be human. (This agrees with
other statistics I've seen: 20% believe abortion to be murder.)
On the other hand, these people are not pro-choice either (thus Cindy is
technically wrong), as they seem to want to deny abortion in many cases even
though they don't consider it murder.
>From the above figures, it seems that about 53% of Americans deny the premises
of both sides. So what DO they believe? One possibily, touched on before in
this debate, is that they believe that pregnancy should be a punishment for
those immoral enough to have sex for recreation only, and abortion allows
them to escape the punishment (as if having an abortion were a picnic!);
so it's okay in cases of rape, etc. I find it hard to believe that this could
be a majority opinion! Any other ideas?
Graeme Hirst
!decvax!brunix!gh gh.brown@udel-relayalb (03/09/83)
This is not an attack on anti-abortionists per se; however, I find it amusing and frustrating that many of the people who claim that a fetus is a human being and thus entitled to full rights under the Consitution and such forth are the same people who believe that children should be seen and not heard, that we have no rights at all except to do what we are told to by the adult society. To them, rights come to an individual between conception and birth, then cease for 21 years, then resume. Kind of hypocritical, no?
dmmartindale (03/10/83)
There is a much simpler explanation why 53% of the population seems confused. The results quoted almost certainly come from at least two different polls, and what people say they believe if they are really somewhat undecided depends very much on the alternative answers available to them. Questions in polls often reflect the biases of the poll-takers in subtle ways which tend to result in the poll showing most people agreeing with the person or group sponsoring the poll. Given this, the seemingly- contradictory results aren't surprising.
jfw (03/10/83)
Regarding 80% of Americans being in favor of abortions, yet 73% wishing to limit abortions...a call for theories is out, so here are a few: The theories are not necessarily the opinions of the author. 1) Rather than labelling the fetus as HUMAN x-or NONHUMAN, perhaps many people regard it as a gray scale, and regard the limitation as a tradeoff. Since this position requires thought to be created and understood, I am sure very few people hold to it, since I have a rather pessimistic view of the average person... 2) They really have no opinion, but figure that being in the middle keeps either side from getting too angry at them. 3) The punishment theory, while I know several people who seem to hold to it, rarely seems to be a conscious motive -- it is necessary to do some digging to elicit from most people (in my observation), and most still won't admit to it when pressed. Read "The Harm That Good Men Do", by Samuel Clemens (sorry, I don't have a pointer to where it is anthologized). Any other theories? Any other cynics out there? How about our own newsgroup, where we can go and be miserable together...:-) John Woods, ...!decvax!genradbo!mitccc!jfw ...!eagle!mitccc!jfw ...!floyd!mitccc!jfw
bernie (03/10/83)
The fact that most people appear extremely confused based on surveys tells us very little about what people think and a great deal about the surveys. I can see people who feel strongly on an issue deliberately biasing the questions; the news media (particularly the "Big Three" television networks) have a reputation for asking extremely one-sided questions.
hamilton (03/12/83)
#R:tekmdp:-180000:uicsovax:22800004:000:1172
uicsovax!hamilton Mar 11 18:47:00 1983
`The question then is: What can we say about these people who want abortion
"limited to certain cases"? These people clearly believe the fetus is not
human, or they could not justify abortion in cases of rape, mother's life in
danger (versus certain death for the fetus), etc.' (Graeme Hirst)
----
it's not impossible to simultaneously favor abortion and consider it murder
(or at least, homicide; my dictionary distinguishes the two with the
qualification that "murder" is "unlawful"). there are many circumstances
where some/many/most Americans would consider homicide acceptable, if
perhaps regrettable (self defense, criminal execution, war, etc). we don't
have to deny humanity to justify it (it's harder to deny the humanity of a
19-year-old soldier); we just resolve that it must be done, even if we don't
like it. how is pre-natal infanticide any different? if you think it's
right and/or necessary, just say so; you've got plenty of precedents.
that you feel compelled to rationalize with the inhumanity argument just
shows the power of the taboo you're up against, and suggests that you feel
it too.
wayne ({decvax,ucbvax}!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsovax!)hamilton