jamcmullan@watmath.UUCP (Judy McMullan) (08/09/83)
mful. A lot of people are avoiding the use of 'he' for women just because
some women don't like it. That is enough reason for them to change.
Some one made what I thought was a good point, the last time we had this
discussion. If you start talking to someone who knows your child's
teacher is a woman and you refer to the teacher as 'he', that person will
correct you and tell you to say 'she'. The word 'he' is NOT really regarded
as genderless.
The whole issue of using male terms for mixed sex groups was re-started in
this newsgroup by someone seeing the phrase "the wise men of netland". The
point is that it would have been incredibly easy to say "the wise ones of
netland" or some such. In my opinion these terms really DO produce a mind-
set, about the sex of the named group, in the reader/hearer. Similarly, use of
the word 'he' to refer to a person of unknown gender or to a female often
confuses the reader/hearer. I have seen it happen more than once -- the rules
of grammar notwithstanding.
I am willing to go along with standards to make communication easier (after
all, I use the One True Brace Style) but not to the point of ridiculousness.
It seems to me to be just plain silly to talk about man-months when the
person who worked every one of the "man-months" was me.
--Judy McMullan
...!{allegra|hcr|utzoo|utcsrgv|bunker|decvax}!watmath!jamcmullandmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (08/11/83)
Judy's example of a female teacher being called "he" really does not prove there is any asymmetry. "He" is used to refer to both a specific person known to be male, and to an unknown "generic" person. In the case of you referring to someone known to be a woman as "he", you will be corrected simply because you are incorrect, in exactly the same way that you will be corrected if you refer to a man as "she". In the case of the "generic" person, there is no specific gender, and I believe either "he" or "she" is acceptable. A sentence such as "A private pilot may not share expenses with her passengers" seems quite natural to me, although I must admit that such usage does startle me sometimes because I seldom see it. I will probably continue using "man-months" regardless of the gender of the person doing the work, simply because "person-months" sounds so awkward to me as a word. I do try to use explicitly neutral terms whenever the resulting sentence seems natural, but "person-month" always seems too contorted to use. And isn't what I THINK, what I MEAN, much more important than the details of what I SAY? Dave Martindale
trb@floyd.UUCP (Andy Tannenbaum) (08/11/83)
I found Judy McMullan's answer here rather odd: ----- Last I heard, I was under no obligation to support the delusion of my fellow man that a terrific place to live is one where nobody is offended by anyone else. laura creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura I guess you mean the person would have to prove TO YOU that such usage is harmful. A lot of people are avoiding the use of 'he' for women just because some women don't like it. That is enough reason for them to change. jamcmullan@watmath.UUCP (Judy McMullan) ----- What strikes me as odd here, is that Judy finds that "because some women don't like it ... is reason enough for them (users of 'he') to change." Evidently, there are also some people who disagreeth her, but that's not reason enough for Judy McMullan to side with those people. I don't see the logic. And when I think of horsepower, I don't think of horses either. Andy Tannenbaum Bell Labs Whippany, NJ (201) 386-6491
ecn-ec:ecn-pc:ecn-ed:vu@pur-ee.UUCP (08/15/83)
This idea just hit me yesterday: Many people answer my mail assuming I am a male. Since I am one, I never paid attention -- until I asked the obvious question: *How* did they know ? I am from Vietnam, and have lived there until I was 17. All the time, I have known only TWO persons with the same first name (Hao-Nhien): when I was a 1st grader, I saw on TV a 6th grader *girl* with the same name; and when I was a 10th grader, my Physics teacher told me she had a baby *boy* nephew with that name. When my Physical Education teacher tried to separate the class into boys' group and girls' group, he had to ask if `Hao-Nhien' was a boy or a girl. If not for the middle name, nobody could tell. The conclusion was that the people who assumed I was a male did so without knowing if I really was one. So, whether you like it or not, the using of "he" when the sex is unknown is customary. Since it never did any harm, it won't make one in the future either. Also, like it or not, you have to admit that many times, when writing to a company, school, etc..., you put "Dear Sirs:" on top. Does that ever means that women on staff at that company or school are not supposed to read your letter ? The habit was an old one. Its roots dated back to the time when some professions are for males only or females only. If somebody was talking to you about his (there we go again!) housemaid, did you ever call the housemaid a "he" ? And back to the 19th century, if somebody talks about a -say- police officer, he (well, or she) would not call the cop a "she". And you can imagine the surprise a 19th century-er would have when reading "The mayor of whatever did whatever. *She* ..." on the morning paper. For centuries, people have learned to assign sex for a person based on the person's activity and/or job. Now that most of these assumptions may be false, the habit is still there. To some people, changing of social situation requires a change in language, and they try to force it. My opinion is: if it really *does* imply a change in language, then it will, some time in the future. To force the change, however, is not a good idea. Even if the effort is successful, it is a waste of time and energy. Also, if the language does not change, there is still nothing to worry about, since it is harmless and unimportant. In the Psychology text I am reading, the authors (I forgot their names) repeatedly use "she" in their examples. I noticed it only when I thought about it. As long as people can understand what you mean, it is unimportant whether you used masculine or feminine pronouns in your speech. Hao-Nhien Q. Vu pur-ee!vu