steven@qubix.UUCP (Steven Maurer) (09/06/83)
Heard recently at a night club:
(band stops playing)
ANNOUNCER : Boy, can those boys play!!
(announcer notices female members in the band)
ANNOUNCER : The women too!
------------------
Before the feminist movement decided to wage war on the
English language, "girl" was a term meaning both "little girl"
(madchen), and "nubile young woman" (fraulein). "Lady" or "woman"
usually meant an older, more settled, female (frau).
I am using examples from German to illustrate that there is
such a distinction made in most languages (and thus, a NEED for
such a distinction). Why do the words GIRLfriend, and BOYfriend
exist?? Simply to reinforce the idea in the listeners mind, that
this is a person that the speaker has an active (sexual) interest in.
There was no sigma associated with being called a "girl" before
the feminist movement decided to create one; it was obvious that
the word had two entirely seprate meanings. This was usually reinforced
by the context that "girl" was used in (aka) "You are one beautiful
girl", "Look at the girls!! ", etc. I am sure you have heard more.
Anyone stupid enough to believe that young gentlemen talking about
"girls" is talking about kindergardeners, should be locked up :->.
It is because of this stupidity that I no longer call myself
a feminist. Growing up in Berkeley, I joined the long before I
knew what it stood for. Now that I have learned that feminism
means a war against men, instead of a struggle against prejudice,
I quit; I found the most difficult to swollow feminist ideology
in the demeaning of a "traditional" family, and those women who
subscribe to it. "Freedom" means freedom to decide, not simply
"freedom to become a radical feminist".
In the name of Progressive Chivalry,
Steven Maurer
p.s. I do not use the term "girl", except in any situation that warrants
it. Using the turn of phrase "The girls at the office", would imply that
I am not aware of anything but the sexuality of my office-mates.jim@ism780.UUCP (Jim Balter) (09/07/83)
re:
Before the feminist movement decided to wage war on the
English language, "girl" was a term meaning both "little girl" ...
---
I doubt that you actually believe that anyone's motive was to destroy or
or in any other way maim the English language for the sole purpose of
doing so, so this would seem to be dishonest manipulative rhetoric, denying
or at least not addressing the clear fact that there are people acting in
good faith on their honest beliefs. Who was this evil Ms. Feminist Movement
who perpetrated this terrible crime? Was not in fact the popularity of these
attempts to change language usage a reflection of feelings held by a large
number of people? There would not have been such a reaction throughout
the print industry if there were not many many people backing these changes.
If the words "boy" and "girl" had been in equivalent use, if words equivalent
to "Mrs." and "Miss" had been in use to distinguish married and unmarried
men, there would not have been the fuel for such change. Is there a NEED
(your emphasis) for a distinction between nubile young *men* and older,
settled, *males*? Such "needs" are reflections of very old social placements,
which are undergoing attack. Denying the reality of large social movements,
attacking the massive number of people who consider themselves feminists as a
group, as though they were a handful of crackpots, is asinine.
If you want to attack someone, do it by name; there has been too much talk
in our recent history of "them".
The word feminism, according to my dictionary, means "the principle that women
should have political, economic, and social rights equal to those of men".
There are many many feminists, with many many variations in their beliefs,
ideologies, and approaches. I am a feminist man, but I am not in a war
against men. I do know of feminists who are, but their existence does not
send me into a reactionary tail-spin. Are you so insecure that you cannot
enter into dialogue with these people or, if dialogue seems futile, simply
ignore them and find feminists of a flavor you find palatable?
I am not afraid to fight with strong women over the guilt of men,
the sexual nature of men, the desirability of women taking on male traits,
the nature of pornography and its censorship, the advisability of single-issue
politics, and a dozen other hot topics. Women and men will never be equal
until we stop being afraid of each other and treat each other as equals.
Jim Balter (decvax!yale-co!ima!jim), Interactive Systems Corp
--------fremont@hplabs.UUCP (Michael J. Fremont) (09/09/83)
----------------
"I am using examples from German to illustrate that there is
such a distinction made in most languages (and thus, a NEED for
such a distinction). Why do the words GIRLfriend, and BOYfriend
exist?? Simply to reinforce the idea in the listeners mind, that
this is a person that the speaker has an active (sexual) interest in.
There was no sigma associated with being called a "girl" before
the feminist movement decided to create one; it was obvious that
the word had two entirely seprate meanings."...
Steven Maurer
------------------
I would like to disagree with these points:
1. In my mind, GIRLfriend and BOYfriend DO NOT refer to sexual
interest. I really doubt that most 13 year olds with boyfriends or
girlfriends are sexually active (obviously, some are).
Additionally, I have (for instance) a friend that refers to
her best (female) friend as a girlfriend. This happens not to be a
sexual reference.
2. The feminist movement did not decide to create a stigma about
being called a girl... women found it demeaning (rightfully so).
For one thing, they were tired of always being referred to (and
thought about) in purely sexual terms (Steven's definition of
GIRLfriend, etc.).
I happen to be a feminist. I do not agree with all of the
ideas in the feminist movement. What movement or group did you ever
100% agree with? All in all, I think the feminist movement has been
extraordinarily successful, and good.
mike