flink@umcp-cs.UUCP (12/16/83)
Lisa S. Chabot said this about an article of mine: I was not pleased to see posted in net.women a response to a letter I'd written to net.singles ... [The] topic is appropriate to net.singles, possibly net.women. But if I thought it was relevant to net.women I would have posted it here. And if it was relevant to net.women, why wasn't it also posted to net.motss, which is probably a more appropriate place. Do I detect an MCP and a MHeterosexualCP attitude blaming women because someone is tense about asking someone out for a date because they've been turned down in the past? Why don't we carry on this discussion in net.singles... I thought the topic appropriate to net.women because my comments were directed to women and particularly to feminists. I don't see why it would be more appropriate to net.motss. I was complaining about the *imbalance* between the sexes in the distribution of asking-out vs. being-asked. I don't think anyone is blaming women for his nervousness. But if most people feel uncomfortable/nervous/etc. when they ask someone out (and I think most people do, at least a little), isn't it only fair that this burden be divided equally? You seem to be saying "your tenseness is your own damn fault and you're trying to blame it on women." I'm saying that tenseness is normal for the ask-er, and so it would be nice to get to be the ask-ee a "fair share" of the time. Everyone seems to be thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence: men seem to be saying the ask-ee has it easier, women the opposite. I guess the solution is to ask people who have been ask-ee and ask-er approximately equally, which position they think has the most power. Their opinions would be less biased. (I bet they'd agree w/ me, but then of course I'm biased, but even so ...) I dislike the insinuation that men have the better side of the bargain but pretend they have the worse (I realize that that happens frequently, but I don't think it's true here). And finally, I would sure appreciate it if feminist women would admit that JUST THIS ONCE (or at least in SOME instance) the gender roles work out more to the disadvantage of my sex than of yours. --Paul "If you want to offend someone, tell him he hasn't suffered as much as you have!" Torek umcp-cs!flink
zben@umcp-cs.UUCP (12/16/83)
. <-- Nigel to the rescue
Article-I.D.: umcp-cs.4446
I guess the solution is to ask people who have been ask-ee and ask-er
approximately equally, which position they think has the most power.
I think the problem lies right here: these things should not be thought
of in terms of power. One goes out with someone else to have a good time;
a good time cannot be had if there are overtones of power-wielding or
sexual tension to get in the way.
I wish I could solve my particular problem: how to keep the number of
significant MOTOS odd. Like one. Seems to me it is always either zero
or two; both of which situations have their own unique problems. I
suspect there is a hysteresis effect going on here - when rho motos is
zero I am unhappy and unattractive, when rho motos is one I become happy
enough to attract another, bumping the number to two. For the record,
I almost *never* ask women out, they always ask me. Could make a pretty
penny if I could bottle it, but instead of trying to make a buck by
writing a book, I am going to prove my philanthropy by providing it free:
Be loose and mellow. Try to give the impression that even if the
night doesn't end up in bed that will be just fine. This is probably
the most important point I will make.
Be witty. Try to understand your date's sense of humor and tailor
your wittiness to fit. A good sense of humor is high on most women's
list of attractive qualities. Do *not* tell dirty jokes unless and
until she has indicated an interest (like by telling one of her own).
Some women like them, some don't. People are different, ya know.
Don't try to dominate, but always be ready to take the initiative
when she signals she wants you to. This goes from deciding where
you are going to go through who orders in a restaurant (don't jump
in and order for her, but be ready, if she requests, to order for
her). Most women like some amount of organization, so be ready with
a plan of interesting things to do on your date. But, to change her
mind is always a women's prerogative, and women seem to like some
amount of sponteneity, so be ready to drop all your plans and do
what *she* wants to do tonight.
Be sensitive rather than macho. Try to be more like Alan Alda that
John Wayne. Quiche actually is edible (as opposed to grits :-) ).
Unconditional positive reinforcement is very important here. All
people get depressed sometimes; if you can become part of her support
network that can go a long way.
Cultivate an understanding of body language. Its not really that hard.
At the end of this item I will put a list of books on the subject that
I have found very useful. Women sometimes accuse me of being able to
read minds. What I am actually doing is reading body language; with
that ability and some understanding of the person's personality you
really can get some understanding of what is going on in that person's
mind.
Above all remember that your date is a person, just like you, and not
an object to be persued or trapped. Far too many people love objects
and use people. The truly sensitive man loves people and uses objects.
Yeah, I know this is all mom and apple pie; but there are so many lonely
guys out there (lonely gals, too) and I really feel for them. So this is
just some random thoughts on what they should do to get themselves together.
I welcome comments and flames from both men and women, even though I might
be a dinosaur I can still learn...
The body language of sex, power, and aggression
Julius Fast, 1978, Jove/HBJ Y4443 $1.95 LC 76-47665
[bit of a sexist title, but some useful information]
How to read a person like a book
Gerald I. Nierenberg, 1973, Pocket Books 671-78593-1 LC 76-158034
Meta-talk (guide to hidden meanings in conversation)
Gerald I. Nierenberg and Henry H. Calero, 1975
Pocket Books 671-78879-5 LC 73-82875
Oh yes, I almost forgot:
"If you can't love yourself, how can you be in love with someone else?"
[lyric by the Butts band, what became of Doors when Morrison died]
Ben Cranston ...seismo!umcp-cs!zben zben@umd2.ARPAariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan) (12/19/83)
Paul Torek says: >Everyone seems to be thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the >fence: men seem to be saying the ask-ee has it easier, women the opposite. >I guess the solution is to ask people who have been ask-ee and ask-er >approximately equally, which position they think has the most power. Their >opinions would be less biased. (I bet they'd agree w/ me, but then of >course I'm biased, but even so ...) Well, I've asked men out, and I've sat around waiting to be asked out, and I much prefer to be ask-er than to be ask-ee (sorry, Paul). I can handle being rejected by someone who I don't know very well (rejection by friends is another matter entirely, but that's another topic altogether), but I HATE sitting around waiting. Someone I know has a theory; she says that shy people learn to "take the bull by the horns," so to speak, and create situations so that they don't have to deal with the unexpected. A person who waits around must deal with the situations that others propose, whereas those who get out and propose themselves don't need to react to anything more unexpected than a rejection. I guess the best approach for the ask-er is to not place so much emphasis on the date. If (s)he rejects you, so what? There are plenty of other fish in the sea. (or, as my grandmother says, "(wo)Men are like streetcars, another one always comes along.") Ariel (I'd rather be a hammer than a nail) Shattan decvax!tektronix!tekecs!ariels
saquigley@watdaisy.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (12/19/83)
I am a woman and I have been both the "asker" and "askee". I used to be the "askee" when I was very young because that was the way things were. Well, I hated it very much, because I was suffering all the time either because some guy I liked showed no interest in me at all, and I thought there was nothing I could do about it, or because he actually liked me but was so shy and inept at showing it or "asking me out" that i had to wait a long long long time before we ever got to hold hands. After a while I got fed up with all this wallpaper-flower s--t and decided to take the matters in my own hands. Except for a few cases where the decisions were quite balanced, I've been the one initiating most of my recent affairs. Well, I am sorry to disappoint you, but I like it MUCH better this way. It may be due to the fact that I have a assertive (some would say agressive or overbearing) personnality, but I hate not to be in control of things. I've also noticed that I am more capable than a lot of guys I know at determining whether someone is actually interested in me or not, and I usually manage to find this out before I make a complete fool of myself; therefore, I've managed to pull myself emotionally out of potentially hurtful situations before getting burned, and never had really to deal with rejection. Of course, I am very lucky, for this matter, to be in a field where I am completely surrounded by men, so maybe it isn't fair to compare my experience with that of many men who feel that there their case is quite hopeless because they don't know too many women and therefore think that they must persevere with the same woman even after it is quite obvious that she is not interested in them. This will probably cause a few flames, but I have noticed one thing about many men and the way they deal with women: they have no idea whatsoever about whether a woman is interested in them as a potential lover, or friend or neither. We seem to be talking quite a different vocabulary. It seems that many men need to be TOLD something before they understand it. It is quite upsetting as a woman to be hounded by people who do not understand subtle hints; It is VERY upsetting when you are asked out by someone you like, and accept, thinking that you are going to have a fun time together, and that person ends up harassing you trying to kiss you, and put their hands here and there on you even after you've tried to make it clear to that person that you were not interested in getting physically "closer" to them. I have found myself forced to be rude to a few men to get them to understand that "No, I am not going to lsleep with you or kiss you or whatever it is that you want". Having had a few of those experiences, I tend to prefer shy men, but then the problem is reversed: they don't understand that you like them unless you tell them or grab their hand or try to kiss them. I try not to do the last two as it reminds me of some of the hunting tactics used by those awful sticky men I described above, so I usually end up having to tell them I like them, or ask them if I could kiss them, which makes me feel TERRIBLY silly because I've always felt that things should happen like in movies where people's mouths and heads and noses are drawn to each other like magnets. Before the flaming start, I have to add that there are men who are not like the ones I just described. I have known a few men who have managed to understand that I was interested in being their girlfriend/lover/whatever and others who understood easily that i was not and who are still friends with me and all sorts of others who understand all sorts of other things that I tell them without talking, so my criticism is not directed at all men. Now, to equalise the blame for all this, women are not perfect either. I have seen women give "false signals", letting the man believe that he should continue showing his interest in them, and that he has good reasons for hope. Having been guilty of this a few times myself, I can attempt to explain the reasons behind such actions. It is wonderful to feel that people like you and find you attractive, so I want people to continue doing it, especially if I like them.. maybe I'm leading them on, but it's not a problem right now, so lets enjoy this while it lasts. Another reason is that flirting is fun. There are men I like, and men I'd like to be lovers with, but for some reasons I can't, usually because it would hurt a third party, or create some other non-sexual problems, or because I feel I couldn't really be fair with them, or they couldn't be fair with me, there are lots of reasons, but I do want them to know that I like them and am attracted to them, so I try to let them know. This is probably unfair to some guys who would probably be better off directing their attention somewhere else, but I usually try not to encourage those. It is not always easy to judge though and one makes mistakes. Coming back to the orignal question of who has more power, I don't really know whether one position is more powerful than the other. Personnally, I feel more powerful when I am the ask-er and I prefer things that way, because I don't like to feel powerless. I think that it depends more on the people involved and the position they put themselves in than the "official" position they are in. I know quite a few women who would never dream of asking a guy out and who still manage to keep complete control on the whole thing. I think that as far as personnal relationships are concerned, there are many different ways of gaining power, one of which is by acting completely powerless, which is one in which women are probably more proficient for historical reasons.
guy@rlgvax.UUCP (Guy Harris) (12/21/83)
Perhaps being the skills involved in being an "asker" are like other skills;
some people have acquired them and some haven't. Why not have the people
who *can* read subtle signals, and who aren't bothered by rejection, etc.
be the ones asking those who haven't picked up those skills out? People who
can do things should be the ones who do them, regardless of race, creed,
color, or sex or gender or what have you. Perhaps men often don't pick
up the social skills needed to be the "asker", and we'd be better off if
women did the asking until men become better at it.
Guy Harris
{seismo,ihnp4,allegra}!rlgvax!guy