jeffw@tekecs.UUCP (Jeff Winslow) (01/09/84)
Sophie Quigley says: > Making sure that women do not copulate with whomever they wish is and has > been a very important part of most cultures. Now, Sophie, you've just had to give up one generalization (if I read the articles about "being subtle" right); shouldn't you be more careful about making others? I don't suppose you'd care to specify which cultures, and give more than a few anecdotes as evidence? When I think back on the women and men I have known, this statement of yours really amazes me. Suspicious but curious, Jeff Winslow
heretyk@abnjh.UUCP (S. Heretyk) (01/11/84)
I'll have to agree with the statement "making sure that women do not copulate with whomever they wish is and has been a very important part of most cultures". The reason for this is that men really don't know who their children are. Shelley Heretyk
saquigley@watdaisy.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (01/12/84)
> Sophie Quigley says: > > > Making sure that women do not copulate with whomever they wish is and has > > been a very important part of most cultures. > > Now, Sophie, you've just had to give up one generalization (if I read the > articles about "being subtle" right); shouldn't you be more careful about > making others? I don't suppose you'd care to specify which cultures, and > give more than a few anecdotes as evidence? When I think back on the women > and men I have known, this statement of yours really amazes me. > > Suspicious but curious, > Jeff Winslow Jeff, I am not too sure exactly about which point we are disagreeing on. I thought that what I had said was quite clear, but maybe it wasn't. I don't understand from your message how you interpreted what I had said; maybe you could clarify that? In the meantime, I can expand on what I had said. In my article, I was refering to the fact that most societies have double standards on what is expected sexually of men and women. To put it very generally, women are often expected to stay virgins until they are married, have sex with only their husband when they are married, and maybe have sex with their second (or third) husband once she is remarried, if the previous husbands happen to die. Men generally, have it a bit looser. Officially, they are supposed to follow the same rules, except in polygynous societies, but in reality, they are expected to have premarital sex, and affairs on the side while they are married. Women who disobey are punished seriously, while men who disobey are not treated as seriously. This is not as true of our current north-american society, but it was not too long ago, and it is still true in many part of the world. This control of women's sexuality is done with varying degrees of subtlety: from our concept of "loose" and "promiscuous" women (while boys will be boys even when this involves raping women) which is not as outdated as you might think (how many sexual partners does a woman need before you consider her "promiscuous" vs how many sexual partners does a man need before you consider him promiscuous? how often do you hear the adjective "promiscuous" applied to women vs. how often do you hear it applied to men?) to the more obvious killing (do they still stone?) of adulterous women in some arab countries such as Saudi Arabia. I have never heard of adulterous men being executed, has anybody? More examples? Ever heard of "girafe women"? this was a tribe in Africa where the canon of beauty for women was long necks. From early childhood on, rings were added around women's necks to elongate them. When these women reached adulthod, their necks would sometime be as long as a foot. Well, here's the hitch: as these rings were never removed from the womens necks, their neck muscles were too weak to support the head if the rings were to be removed. Husbands whose wives had been adulterous were allowed to cut the rings, at which time the neck would fold over and the women would choke to death. In muslim weddings, after the marriage ceremony is performed, the bride and groom have to have sex in their room while guests are dancing and enjoying themselves outside. After they are finished, the bloodied sheet is hung up above the bed where the bride sits. The groom goes outside to be congratulated by his male friends while the female members of the party have to go inside talk to the bride and check out that yes, the sheets are bloody. If the woman happens not to bleed, they kill a chicken or something like that to pour the blood over the sheet and save face. By the way, don't think that this is so barbarious. In some european countries (Ireland is one of them I believe) there used to be similar customs where the bloody sheets had to be hung outside of the window on the morning after the wedding. Closer to home, in 1979 (78, 80? I don't remember) a law was passed in Italy outlawing killing "per causa di honor" (or something like that). Until then men were allowed to kill their mother or sister or wife or daughter (only close relatives) if they had "dishonored" him, which usually meant that they had consorted with someone without that man's permission. Need I go on? I thought this was pretty basic stuff, something like feminism 101. I guess I was wrong.
ucbesvax.turner@ucbcad.UUCP (01/15/84)
#R:tekecs:-339700:ucbesvax:10300030:000:1238 ucbesvax!turner Jan 12 13:03:00 1984 > Subject: Generalizations and controlled women > Sophie Quigley says: > > Making sure that women do not copulate with whomever they wish is and has > > been a very important part of most cultures. > Now, Sophie, you've just had to give up one generalization (if I read the > articles about "being subtle" right); shouldn't you be more careful about > making others? I don't suppose you'd care to specify which cultures, and > give more than a few anecdotes as evidence? When I think back on the women > and men I have known, this statement of yours really amazes me. > Jeff Winslow Jeff, perhaps *you* should be more specific about the native cultures of "women and men [you] have known". In particular, how many of them were from provincial Chinese or third world Islamic backgrounds? If we take these as more representative of "most cultures" than back-grounds from the Western cultures (ignoring, for the moment, the macho contribution of the Mediterranean), I think Sophie Quigley has the kind of case that should send you scurrying to the library in search of a better education. Which is what you should be doing now, not venting your ignorance onto the net. --- Michael Turner (ucbvax!ucbesvax.turner)
tomj@dartvax.UUCP (Thomas Johnston) (01/16/84)
..During the reign of Edward III of England, treason was defined to include
having sexual relations with the sovereign's wife, the wife of the sovereign's
eldest son, or the sovereign's eldest daughter unmarried. The purpose, of
course, was to protect the line of decent.
In a society where property passes from father to son, there is an obvious
desire to insure that one's heir is not the result of some extra-marital
relationship between one's wife and the neighboring lord.
Those royal women, by the way, would commit treason if they encouraged
extra-marital sexual relations....
Thos. Johnston
linus!dartvax!tomjemjej@uokvax.UUCP (01/21/84)
#R:abnjh:-39600:uokvax:6500003:000:336 uokvax!emjej Jan 19 22:18:00 1984 I believe that the practice of wearing rings about the neck (which doesn't lengthen the neck, but instead pushes the--aargh! it's been too long since Zoo!--crosswise bones (correct nomenclature desperately needed and solicited) down) is Burmese. One of those people who buys Guinness (the book) repeatedly, James Jones