welsch@houxu.UUCP (01/24/84)
(to the eater of first lines) Since few people seem to be aware of the realities of rape of males, I will give you my reasons why I think it is worse for a man to be raped than a woman. First, men tend to be raped in situations where there is no long term escape, such as in prison, armed services, or at sea. After a rape most women can arrange their lives differently so that they are less likely to get raped, ie. add locks, move, get police protection, not walk on that lonely street. For the male, due to the location this is not possible. Since this is true the rape becomes not an isolated instance, but a part of his life for a long period. This has long term effects. Second, the rape tends not to be a single man raping a single man, but a group phenomenon, part of the ritual of establishing the pecking order in the group. Hence , the rape establishes a social position amongs the man's peers, ie. it is the weakest member of the group who is raped. Once the rape has occurred the man is literally at the bottom of the pecking order and subject to rape and dominance by all other male members present. Thus the rape leads directly to subservience on the part of the person raped. Third, the rape not only threatens the male's sexuality, but his whole sexual role. He is forced to take a role that he has been taught belongs to the woman. Thus threatening his whole being. The man may become impotent, and totally incapable of enjoying sex. Fourth, society tends to ignore the whole issue. Rape in prison is felt by many people to be part of the punishment. Rape in the armed services is considered to be part of the toughening. Men tend to take a harsh, non sympathetic attitude towards their peers. Usually the man raped is considered to be queer. There are no such things as support groups or special counciling for the raped man. Larry Welsch houxu!welsch
snafu@ihuxi.UUCP (01/24/84)
Who really gives a rip whether rape is worse for a man or a woman???
I really cannot think of a more ridiculous thing to argue about!
The only result of an argument like this is that everyone involved
will forget about the really important issues - what can we do to
prevent rapes, deter repeat offenders, and offer some kind of help for
its victims? The sex of the victim couldn't be less relevent to this
discussion! Can't you all realize that we are all on the same side?
Come on people - get with it!
--
Dave Wallis
ihnp4!ihuxi!snafu
AT&T Technologies, Inc.
(312) 979-5894twiss@stolaf.UUCP (Thomas S. Twiss) (01/25/84)
Larry Welsch's points are well taken, but you'll notice that all of the things that are "worse" about male-male rape are contrivances of society and don't really relate to the act itself. For me, the first time I heard of male-male rape (yes, I'd never conceived ot it before) I was shocked and disgusted and I thought it was far worse than male-female rape. Then I started thinking about it and I realized that the two acts are intrinsically the same and I think I finally got some inkling of how women feel about rape. Some of the "bad" things Larry mentions are indeed pretty awful, but they are not always the case. The environment in which a rape takes place does not factor in the act itself i.e. it's still rape. Rape of any kind occurs every day in almost any circumstances. Just because SOME of the environments that male-male rape takes place in (and I stress that not all male-male rapes are in Mr. Welsch's "situations) are particularly bad does not alter the severity of the act. Is it really possible to discuss the gradations of rape??? Can one rape be better or worse than another?? Of course not. Tom Twiss ...!ihnp4!stolaf!twiss all flames welcome via net or mail
kmw@iheds.UUCP (01/25/84)
I wish I had time to reply to your article in the detail I would like. Instead, I will mention a few points, and strongly suggest you read the references listed at the end. >> Since few people seem to be aware of the realities of rape of >> males, I will give you my reasons why I think it is worse for a man to >> be raped than a woman. I was aware of the issues you bring up. I disagree with your contention that they make rape worse for a man than for a woman. They make it the same. >> First, men tend to be raped in situations where there is no long term >> escape, such as in prison, armed services, or at sea. After a rape most >> women can arrange their lives differently so that they are less likely >> to get raped, ie. add locks, move, get police protection, not walk on >> that lonely street. For the male, due to the location this is not >> possible. Since this is true the rape becomes not an isolated instance, >> but a part of his life for a long period. This has long term effects. Men are raped in prisons. Women are raped everywhere. A raped man who gets out of prison finds himself in a situation where he no longer expects to be raped. A woman raped in her home, on the public streets, etc., has no where to go where she can expect to be safer. (Over 30% of rapes occur in the woman's home, after forced entry.) Some women are raped over long periods of time in situations where they are imprisoned, by a combination of force, complete financial dependency, and in some cultures, by marital law. All the situations you describe pertaining to men being raped pertain to many rapes of women. It's just that there is the leeway for so many MORE rape situations pertaining to women. And there are so many more rapes of women. >> Second, the rape tends not to be a single man raping a single man, but >> a group phenomenon, part of the ritual of establishing the pecking order >> in the group. Hence , the rape establishes a social position amongs the >> man's peers, ie. it is the weakest member of the group who is raped. Exactly. Same thing for women. Between 30% and 70% (depending on the city studied) of rapes against women are gang rapes. As for rape establishing a pecking order, the weakest being raped, well, what do you think the rape of a woman by a man is? Is it supposed to be less important to a woman that someone else is establishing violent physical dominance over her? >> Once the rape has occurred the man is literally at the bottom of the >> pecking order and subject to rape and dominance by all other male >> members present. Thus the rape leads directly to subservience on the >> part of the person raped. See above. >> Third, the rape not only threatens the male's sexuality, but his whole >> sexual role. He is forced to take a role that he has been taught >> belongs to the woman. Thus threatening his whole being. The man >> may become impotent, and totally incapable of enjoying sex. Unless you consider being forcefully dominated against her will the sex role taught to women, I haven't the slightest idea what contrast you are trying to make here. Also, the common side effects of rape: the woman feels her sexuality is threatened; she may become frigid, and totally incapable of enjoying sex. Sound familiar? >> Fourth, society tends to ignore the whole issue. Rape in prison is felt >> by many people to be part of the punishment. Rape in the armed services >> is considered to be part of the toughening. Men tend to take a harsh, >> non sympathetic attitude towards their peers. Usually the man raped is >> considered to be queer. There are no such things as support groups or >> special counciling for the raped man. >> Larry Welsch We agree: male rape victims are often ignored, and should not be. They are, in fact, in the situation women rape victims often found themselves in this country until recently, and still find themselves in many other countries. Many people (men and women) still take an unsympathetic view toward a woman who has been raped. Often she is considered to be a slut, to have been asking for it. Only very recently are these attitudes changing. Some classic references, which are much more complete and coherent (it's late) than I: Susan Brownmiller's "Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape" 1975. (See particularly the sections on the implications of male prison rape.) Kate Millett's "Sexual Politics," 1969. -- K. M. Wilber iheds!kmw or mvuxs!kw
wombat@uicsl.UUCP (01/26/84)
#R:houxu:-29900:uicsl:16400035:000:950 uicsl!wombat Jan 25 15:30:00 1984 Instead of complaining about the "lack of support group and counciling" available for men, go out and do something about it. Women didn't get them magically overnight. They felt a strong need for them (I suppose, I've never been in one) and started them. Until men decide that they want to learn to be less aggressive, and want support groups to help them with their special problems in this period of change, nothing that women do to help create men's groups will do any good. Talk to people at your local YM/WCA or whatever and start your own group. The University Y here sponsors "Communiversity" courses, some of which are essentially support groups for men. If you don't like the way things are, work for what you DO want. Many women who were raped back before there were women's groups weren't much better off than the men you describe; unskilled women trapped with violent husbands had no choice. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat
metcalf@inmet.UUCP (01/28/84)
#R:houxu:-29900:inmet:10900035:000:570 inmet!metcalf Jan 27 12:11:00 1984 It seems to me that two of the things which Larry thinks make rape more tragic for a man than for a women (i.e. that he is 'subject to rape and dominace' which 'leads directly to subservience' and that he is forced to take a role that he has been taught belongs to the women') describes that situation which women are expected to live with. In other words, its only tragic because the raped man is being treated like a woman. How humiliating! How sad! (And how nice it would be if women were not expected to be subservient and subject to domination.) -wcm
ded@aplvax.UUCP (01/30/84)
To tell you the truth, I think this is one of the most ridiculous discussions ever seen on the net (and we've seen plenty, haven't we?). Rape is hard on ANY victim, and the nature of that hurt varies from person to person, not from sex to sex. Arguing over who is hurt most by a rape is akin to arguing over who is hurt more by a gunshot. But if y'all want to do it, go right ahead... The main reason I'm appearing here is to address some pretty wild statements made by Larry Welsch. >Rape in the armed services is considered to be part of the toughening. >Men tend to take a harsh, non sympathetic attitude towards their peers. Well, Larry, if you're a veteran (and I doubt it) you were in a completely different service than I was. Not once did I hear of any man being raped, and if I had, I wouldn't have considered it part of the "toughening." Nor would anyone else. Let's keep this discussion on the planet Earth, okay? No fair bringing up your experiences on the planet Krypton. -- Don Davis JHU/APL ...decvax!harpo!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!ded ...rlgvax!cvl!umcp-cs!aplvax!ded