welsch@houxu.UUCP (01/28/84)
(to the eater of first lines) If we are going to discuss the topic that Tom Twiss has proposed I recommend some ground rules to try to keep the pitch below a "flame" level. The ground rules are: 1. Provide a reference for all controversial work referred too. 2. References should be no more than 10 years old. 3. Leave personal biases out of the discussion. 4. No anecdotes. To start I, I would like to make the proposal that genius's tend to boys. The reference is Science, 23 December 1983, Vol. 222, No 4630 page 1312, article "Math Genius May Have Hormonal Basis" by Gina Kolata. The article refers to a study Norman Geschwind, a neurologist at Harvard medical school. He has proposed that left handedness, immune system disorders, autism dyslexia, stuttering and giftedness in the arts, music, and mathematics can be linked together. Specifically, he theorizes they are all caused by an excess of testosterone or unusual sensitivity to testosterone during fetal life that alters brain anatomy. More interesting after Geschwind made his predictions, Benbow and Stanly at Johns Hopkins University did a study and found Geschwind's predictions held up beautifully. Since boys are more exposed to testosterone in utero is more likely for them to be mathematically inclined. It is also more likely for males to suffer from autism and dyslexia, ie. males are more variable than females. Larry Welsch houxu!welsch
sebb@pyuxss.UUCP (S Badian) (01/30/84)
In the original article on this subject, it was stated that aggressiveness is essential in order to be a good musician. And it has been said that aggressiveness is essential for success in many other fields. Since women are not naturally aggressiveness they cannot be a successful as men. But is it aggression or is it confidence? This exact same question came up in a skiing magazine. Many people believe men ski better than women because men ski more aggressively. But most ski instructors maintain that it is confidence that makes a truly fine skier. I think that this sort of thinking should carry over into other fields because it gets rid of the male/female question. Confidence is something you gain, not something you are born with. Women tend to be less confident because they find themselves in unknown and hostile territory more and more. If you're just learning the ropes, how confident can you be? What if we do prove that men are more talented in math, the arts, whatever? This only applies to the very high end--the genius level. How does this apply to the rest of us average people? Are we going to say "Because men are more talented, they should get more education and bigger breaks than women?" I sure hope not. It may prove to be interesting as a fact, but as far as society is concerned it cannot add to the quality of life of either sex. People are not the same(be darn boring if they were) but that does not mean they are not equal. Sharon Badian
twiss@stolaf.UUCP (Thomas S. Twiss) (02/01/84)
Sharon Badian said that I should've used the word "confidence" in my first article rather than "agressiveness". Contextually, Sharon, I think I mean the same thing as you. Thank you for a better expression and please pardon my verbal inadequacies. Tom Twiss ...!ihnp4!stolaf!twiss
cdanderson@watarts.UUCP (02/01/84)
Regarding the ability of one gender to perform roles in a fashion
superior to another (eg. wymyn as nurterers, men as agressive etc.), "I"
believe that no roles or faculties are inherently female or male, but
that, instead, we are aculturated to assume certain characteristics over
others, depending on what the specific society dictates is that genders role. Thus, wymyn are not naturally conciliatory or intuitive
and men not naturally warlike, but that we both have all at birth.
>From this point on, certain features/functions are encouraged and
others, discouraged. Such a viewpoint is substantiated, it seems, in
tests where parents are told, in the O.B. wings, that they have given
birth to boys (whereupon they note how strong and aggressive the child
is) vs. when the child is identified as a girl (when the passive traits
are "seen"). Sometimes the sex
of the child was puposefully mis-identified and the parent reacted positively
to the "alledged" vs. "true" sex.
Hoping that one day we will all be net.people
C.D. Andersongrass@uiuccsb.UUCP (02/03/84)
#R:pyuxss:-25500:uiuccsb:12700009:000:851 uiuccsb!grass Feb 2 17:06:00 1984 An interesting sport to consider here is the whole range of equestrian sports, with the sole exception of Thoroughbred racing (which has a long discriminatory history), women and men have competed directly for quite a while (mares, geldings and stallions too, but that is another story). As a matter of fact, the top U.S. open jumper rider has frequently been a woman. Physical strength is not a major factor in this sport, but courage, coordination, and a certain sort of mental toughness sure is. A good rider also has to be pretty aggressive at times. It is about impossible to get 1000 pounds of unwilling horse over a 5 foot plus fence otherwise. -- Judy Grass P.S. It is kind of a U.S. oddity that fewer men seem to start in horse sports than women. Most of the world it seems to be more the reverse, but in any case women do well.
features@ihuxf.UUCP (02/03/84)
I believe it was Margaret Mead who, during her anthropological field work in the 1920-30's, found that "feminine" and "masculine" traits depended on the particular society she found herself in. That is, what is considered feminine in one society would be definitely masculine in another. The interesting thing about it was that whatever was considered to be the higher-status occupation almost invariably was termed "masculine". As far as American sex-linked traits go, Larry's right, one cannot completely disregard biology. (Infant girls whose mothers are given testosterone during pregnancy turn out to be tomboys!) Still, I think that the range of behavior possible for humans can be more inclusive, more in tune with individual variations, than strict sex roles. And more freeing for an individual who finds herself outside of the accepted mode. "Not dainty by any means, but certainly very feminine*" M.A. Zeszutko AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL *by my definition!
tims@shark.UUCP (Tim Stoehr) (02/04/84)
Subject: Male/Female Roles
> To start I, I would like to make the proposal that genius's tend to boys.
I have read the same thing, it is also interesting that more boys are born,
born retarded, born dead, and die of "crib death," as my brother did. It
does seem to be that case that the excess amounts of testosterone, or some
other factor in male fetal development, produces some radical development
in some cases, for the better or not. I tend to believe this also on the
basis of observing men's behavior.
Yes, I am a male discussing males on net.women, sorry if I offended anyone.leiby@yeti.UUCP (02/05/84)
> 1. Provide a reference for all controversial work referred too. ... > 4. No anecdotes. But what is an anecdote other than an empirical sample? Besides, they're a lot less boring. -- Mike Leibensperger @ Masscomp, Westford MA 01886 {tektronix,harpo,decvax}!masscomp!leiby
phipps@fortune.UUCP (Clay Phipps) (02/14/84)
Seems to me that I heard about a year ago that the
two top drivers in nation drag-racing competition in some category
were women. Note that by "some category" I am *not* suggesting
that there was some meeker category that women could be tops in;
if memory serves me correctly, it was one of the most "macho" categories:
"top fuel" (isn't that the one where you use nitroglycerin as fuel ?).
Same goes for at least one category (again, not some docile division)
of airplane racing or aerobatics, I think.
Apparently, control and finesse are more important than brute strength
in these areas. Haven't women often been delegated labor requiring
fine attention to detail (a form of control and finesse) throughout history ?
An interesting aside: if it turns out that women take over these
previously male domains, what does that suggest about women serving
in combat roles in the military, as, say, fighter pilots ?
I mean, we would want our best pilots defending our countries, wouldn't we ?
(Sorry I couldn't be more specific with my information;
maybe someone can provide details)
-- Clay Phipps
--
{allegra,amd70,cbosgd,dsd,floyd,harpo,hpda,ihnp4,
megatest,nsc,oliveb,sri-unix,twg,varian,VisiA,wdl1}
!fortune!phipps