jpj@mss.UUCP (J. P. Jenal) (03/15/84)
When I was in graduate school I dated a woman who was working at the Salt Lake Rape Crisis Center. Due in part to my association with her I started looking more closely at the subject of rape and read Brownmiller's book. The interesting part of this is that I wound up at a party with Brownmiller and the staff of the rape crisis center. My principle difficulty with the book was that its major premise, that ALL men use rape to subjugate ALL women, simply left no room for a man (as an individual) to feel part of the solution instead of part of the problem. While I was at the party I finally fought my way through the crowd to ask Ms. Brownmiller about the strident tone of her otherwise informative book. She simply responded that she was in a fight and didn't have time to worry about the sensibilities of the (relatively) few males who would bother to read her book. She was trying to make a point and didn't want to dilute that point with equivocations. A couple of the women that were at the party later came up to me and said that they too were uncomfortable with the tone of Brownmiller's work and felt that alienating men and women further was not a solution to the problem. Apparently Brownmiller feels somewhat uncomfortable now as well. I remember reading recently (sorry, can't quote the source - I read this in a hurry and didn't think I was going to cite it!) that she now feels that she may have erred by making her book too condemning of men in general. Rather than condemning any group in general - we need to work toward educating people to the point of caring about others - not just kin, but kind. As to how we do this - certainly in part by trying to show that caring as we go and very importantly, instilling that concern in our children. I'll try to remember those words tomorrow as I *drive* to school - we've got to start somewhere. -- Cheers... Jim Jenal (aka sdcrdcf!trwrb!scgvaxd!mss!jpj) Mayfield Senior School ( " vortex!wlbr!scgvaxd!mss!jpj)
ge@mcnc.UUCP (George Entenman) (03/18/84)
In a recent news article, Jim Jenal discusses Susan Brownmiller's book,
stating that:
"My principle difficulty with the book was that its major premise,
that ALL men use rape to subjugate ALL women, simply left no room
for a man (as an individual) to feel part of the solution instead
of part of the problem."
Perhaps Brownmiller's point isn't that all men USE rape to subjugate
all women, but rather that ALL women are subjugated by rape in some
sense, and therefore that ALL men, who are not so subjugated, BENEFIT
from rape, willingly or not. I believe that an analogy can be drawn
with racism. Those of us who are white benefit from racism in some
sense (and of course we are all poorer for it in another sense); we
benefit from it whether we wish to or not, and whether we are racist
individuals or not. Our education is usually better, our neighborhoods
safer, our chances of being suspected of crimes are less, our chances
for employment greater, etc.
The thing that impressed me about Brownmiller's book is that it succeeds
in proving that rape is a means of achieving power over women
(the part that really convinced me was the section on pulp magazine
stories because they made the connection between rape and power explicit).
As a man, I participate in the advantages that this power over women
gives to all men.
As an individual, I don't LIKE the fact that other men's rapes benefits
me. Certainly I would do my best to prevent any actual rapes from
occuring. But this doesn't prevent me from benefiting from a certain
kind of power over women. If nothing else, simply being able to help
protect women against rape gives me a certain usefullness to women that
women cannot have for me. In this and other ways I benefit from rape,
whether I wish to or not.
I am not certain if this is what Brownmiller meant, and I admit that I
am puzzled by Brownmiller's reply to Jenal at the party where he met
her ("she simply responded that she was in a fight and didn't have time
to worry about the sensibilities of the (relatively) few males who
would bother to read her book.").
Of course, Jenal's main point is well-taken: the TONE of Brownmiller's
book is NOT conducive to the kind of cooperation that we must have
between men and women if we are to eliminate the kinds of human
relations epitomized by rape and other forms of violence.
Nevertheless, this tone should be understandable given the sort of
things that Brownmiller was thinking about as she wrote her book. And
I believe that her book is essential to understanding the function of
rape in our society, an understanding that we need if we are to change
our society.
George Entenman
...decvax!mcnc!gelaura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/19/84)
Rape is not a battle campaign in which the ``men'' try to score points on the ``women''. There is no way in which one can say ``all men benefit from rape''. Clearly, there may be some individuals who benefit from rape, but to generalise to the whole is to destroy the meaning of individual experience, which still counted for something the last time I looked. Your statement is meaningless. It is a reasonable to say ``some women benefit from rape'' as ``some men benefit from rape''. You get raped and discover that nobody can take care of you. This is a good thing to discover, and something that everybody needs to learn. Something tells me that this is not a very good argument for rape is a beneficial thing, however. The sort of person who wants to feel pitied all her life can make a huge emotional gain out of her ``the horrible night on which I was raped'' story. (These people exist. Remember that the people who make up rape stories <and we know they exist> can get raped as well.) Something tells me that rape isn't a good thing, nonetheless. The trick is that everything that can happen to you in life can enrich your life (if you choose it to) or make it miserable (if you choose it to). But if you crawl back into the crowd and react in non-thinking stereotyical ways to your life it is no wonder that you are never enriched. Especially when there is such a premium on being miserable (after all, other people pity you and try to make you feel better, which is precisely why a lot of people really want to make their lives miserable). Feminism is racism. The basis for racism is to define a basic, common group where all member can automatically ``belong'', derive comfort, and not have to think. In the past, it was easy to belong to the group ``White'' or ``Black'' and racism prevailed. (note: do not make the mistake of saying that when a White guy hates a Black guy it is racism, but when a Black guy hates a White guy it is all right. Racism is racism, no matter which group is deemed ``over-privledged'' and which is deemed ``under-priveledged''. This is not to say that the Black guys don't have REASONS for hating the White guys either. Of course they do. And the White guys have reasons for hating the Black guys. We have just decided that the action (hatred) is not justified by the reasons.) Now we have racism again -- along sexual lines. Have you lot never heard of Sturgeon's Law? 90% of everything is crap. This goes for human beings as well. 90% of the men are lousy human beings. 90% of the women are lousy human beings. Maybe some of them will improve; lots will not. (Note again: this does not mean ``lousy as in - Why doesn't somebody kill the bastards?'' but that for various ethical and personal reasons you believe that these people are falling far short of their potential and are being less-than good people as a result of this. For instance, I lump all ``feminists'' into the category of lousy, although on an individual level there are a fair number of feminists that aren't all that hard to take. Which is another argument against seeing people as a member of some group. However, when you are looking at 100% of all women to see if they follow Sturgeon's Law as well, you can not help but see them as a group.) Now we can get into a debate over ``well, what is feminism'', but as long as you distinguish it from ``humanism'' (something that I think by and large is a good thing, though I think that its philosophy has been used to justify some not-so-good things) I think that we will be talking about the same thing. Any philosophy which stresses that there is something ``special'' ``priveledged'' or ``underpriveledged'' about certain individuals on the basis of their sex is racist. All women aren't fantastic. All men aren't boors. And rape is an act between 2 or more individuals, not between 2 collectives which have no real existence. Laura Creighton utzoo!laura Yes, I think that the mailing list is a very bad idea. No, I am not on it. No, I don't want to be on it. And I think that static cling, like body odor , is a non-real problem which marketing people have made into a disaster through making people believe that having somebody not approve of you (or, God-forbid, hate you) is a major disaster in your life. This is a terrible lie. It is really quite easy to live though others dislike you (or are offended by your static cling) once you look at others critically, objectively, rather than as objects to combat your own ontological insecurity. Every kid who has been too short, or too fat, or too ugly, or too smart, or too pimply at school has learned how to live with it. (this too is easy. find people who don't mind shortness, fatness, ugliness, smartness or whatever. Granted, if you are short, fat, ugly, smart, and pimply it may take some looking...) It is not as nice as having somebody who likes you, but it sure doesn't kill you. However, until you learn this, you can never demonstrate the courage that is necessary to maintain one's integrity throughout life. Your integrity will always suffer whenever you feel that you might allow people to dislike you. Integrity, however, is a lot more important than friendship. As a friend of mine used to say: ``you gotta sleep with yourself, first'' Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
flinn@seismo.UUCP (E. A. Flinn) (03/19/84)
---- I thought Sturgeon's law was that hardly anything matters very much in life, and very few things matter at all.
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (03/21/84)
I have the impression that in Saudi Arabia there is no rape (or feminism or hint of sexual equality). Yet the men seem to completely dominate the society. Maybe the Wahhabis know something Brownmiller does not. Are there any Saudi Arabians on the net who can confirm this?
jbf@ccieng5.UUCP (Jens Bernhard Fiederer) (03/28/84)
All men benefit by the rapes of a few? Perhaps those who like terrified, paranoid women. Personally, I think I suffer. The Grey Mouser -- Reachable as ....allegra![rayssd,rlgvax]!ccieng5!jbf Or just address to 'native of the night' and trust in the forces of evil.