saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (04/03/84)
Here are parts of a conversation on this rape in Lybia issue, I would like to make a few comments at the end. From martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) > >Let me say that my comment about Libya, "male-dominated, repressive, > >inhibitive society" *was* a culturally chauvinistic statement. However I do > >feel the same way the Jim Dyer does when he states that our culture has been > >much improved (I would say tremendously improved) due to the Women's Movement > >and to all people re-examining roles and behaviors that have been taken for > >granted for *too* long. We still have a long way to go. It is my hope that > >ultimately we will have a world society where the rights and privileges of > >all humans are equal and not based according to sex, race, religion, or any > >other arbitrary criterion. > > This last statement is typical Western exterminationist rhetoric. I come > from a culture which emphasizes duties and responsibilities above rights > and privileges. Don't we have a right to exist in the future? The writer > seems to advocate world cultural homogeneity, but cultural diversity is > one of the nicer characteristics of this planet. > > The rapist's desire to victimize is more important than the woman's self > image. > > > One other comment - it is very > >difficult for "all the men to grab their weapons and hack the attacker to > >pieces" if the rape does not occur in public. Most of them don't. > > I saw an article which detested my opinions and stated the exact opposite. > > For all of you who do not read Arabic and who are woefully ignorant of > Islamic society, the big issue which educated Muslim women are addressing > is female circumcision which is the removal or mutilation of the > clitoris. The issues which American feminists discuss seem quite trivial > by comparison. First, most rapes do not happen in public!! I did not read the alleged article which claim that they did and I would like to know where it is, and even if somebody did post such an article, such a claim is absolutely ridiculous. Commiting rape in public is much more dangerous than in private and there is no good reason that a rapist would do such a thing given a choice. Rapes in occidental countries happen mainly between people who know each other, often members of the same families. I know that the autor is going to accuse me of all sorts of crimes against his country, but I see no reason to believe that things would not be the same in muslim society, expecially given the tradition of women being posessions of their husbands. We are aware that one of the most important issues in islamic society is clitorectomies. It was one of the important issues in america too before they were outlawed. Clitorectomies is a very touchy issue because it is one such issue which is defended by the males of countries where those operations are performed as "part of the culture", so any effort from outside the country to change this can be denounced as "exterminationist rethoric". This is why it is so good that women from within the countries are getting organised. I was very surprised to see you bring up this point because I have the impression that if I had brought it up I would have been accused of being one of those "exterminationists". Clitorectomies are one of the most pressing issues since they are a life and death issue and a health issue. This does not mean that women in your countries do not care about other issues, but rather that they've realised that they must deal with the most threatening ones first. Don't hold your breath, after they're finished with those, they will probably move on to the other "less important" issues that we are concerned about here, like violence against women, discrimination etc.. I don't know what the point of bringing clitorectomy up in this conversation was. If it was to tell us to get involved in it, then there is no need to do so as there are occidental women concerned about the issue, but they are keeping a low profile because they tend to do more harm than good as they are viewed as threatening cultures and imposing their own on others. If it is to tell us that your country's women are superior because their sufferings are greater, I don't buy that and I am sure the women don't buy it either. This is an old deviant paternalistic method for keeping women subjugated. Work on their masochism and make them feel superior because they are suffering so much more, and this way they will not want to give up the suffering because it will mean that they are giving up this imagined superiority. Well, the women of lybia who are fighting against clitorectomies are already making the statement, by their fight, that they want no part in this fraudulous system of masochism and superiority. If finally you are trying to tell us that our concerns are not important, then you are just plain wrong, or at least you are in our society because it is a society where most individuals are concerned about such matters as rape even if the society as a whole isn't. I am sure Lybian women would prefer not to have to worry about clitorectomies and worry about rape instead (they would probably prefer not to have to worry about either just like we would) and I am sure that they will eventually start to worry about rape too. I agree whole heartedly with you when you make the point that our western society doesn't put enough emphasis on responsability. I do think however that your society does not put enough emphasis on rights. I do not believe that there can be a "just" society without an emphasis on both, so I don't think that the muslim society is closer to being just than ours is because of this lack of concern about rights. I am not sure exactly how you relate this to the rape problem because as far as I know if you are against rape then it is because you believe in a woman's right not be raped. You can try to make sure they aren't by instilling a sence of responsability in men not to rape, and also by instilling one in women in not putting themselves in a rape situation by "tempting" the men. You can also try to do it by enforcing a woman's right not to be raped. In my opinion, both approaches are needed if you want to erradicate rape. In our society, we have accepted a mode of dress which emphasises people's sexuality much more than the one in your country does. I think that the lesson that we need to learn is one of responsability: "look, but don't touch". However since there are rapes happening in Lybia even if women are not that interesting to look at when they are wearing clothes, it must be that there is still something wrong there, so I suggest you start wondering about your own society before you accuse ours of being the only one that's sick. Considering what I have just learned about Muslim laws concerning rape and sex, I am under the impression that there are not significantly more rapes in America or Europe than in muslim countries, but significantly more reported rapes because of our different sexual attitudes which makes reporting rape less dangerous for our women than for your women. Sophie Quigley ...!{decvax,allegra}!watmath!saquigley
bonniea@iddic.UUCP (04/04/84)
Aren't "we" generalizing... Public Rape DOES happen REMEMBER NEW BEDFORD, MASS.!!!!!!! Dangerous, yes; Stupid, yes... What less can we expect? The struggle goes on. Awareness, consciousness raising, legislation, dialog, action. The frustration comes in waiting...