martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/08/84)
Sophie Quigley posted this article a few days ago. I have no intention of flaming because Miss Quigley clearly wants to argue with a committed Muslim who would defend Islamic society to the hilt. I am not a Muslim and my family belonged to the Jewish millet. Therefore, we have our own separate gripes against Muslims. Still, I should like to note that in a previous article Miss Quigley confused evidence rules of rape and adultery cases. The requirement of extremely strict proof in the case of adultery is one of the good features of Islamic law. In any case, the press is the last place to find good information on Islamic society. Most of the reporters seem brain-damaged on third world issues and either take ridiculously negative or ridiculously positive standpoints. V.S. Naipaul, who is a Carribean East Indian and who consequently lacks this silly first-world guilt from which Western reporters sometimes suffer, is supposed to be an excellent critic of the third-world although as a Hindu he may some latent prejudice against Muslims. >Here are parts of a conversation on this rape in Lybia issue, I would like >to make a few comments at the end. Since most of the languages I speak do not have homonyms, I have been faulted several times for my usages. Still Miss Quigley could have checked to find the spelling "Libya." >>From martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) >> >Let me say that my comment about Libya, "male-dominated, repressive, >> >inhibitive society" *was* a culturally chauvinistic statement. However I do >> >feel the same way the Jim Dyer does when he states that our culture has been >> >much improved (I would say tremendously improved) due to the Women's Movement >> >and to all people re-examining roles and behaviors that have been taken for >> >granted for *too* long. We still have a long way to go. It is my hope that >> >ultimately we will have a world society where the rights and privileges of >> >all humans are equal and not based according to sex, race, religion, or any >> >other arbitrary criterion. >> >> This last statement is typical Western exterminationist rhetoric. I come >> from a culture which emphasizes duties and responsibilities above rights >> and privileges. Don't we have a right to exist in the future? The writer >> seems to advocate world cultural homogeneity, but cultural diversity is >> one of the nicer characteristics of this planet. >> >> The rapist's desire to victimize is more important than the woman's self >> image. >> >> > One other comment - it is very >> >difficult for "all the men to grab their weapons and hack the attacker to >> >pieces" if the rape does not occur in public. Most of them don't. >> >> I saw an article which detested my opinions and stated the exact opposite. >> >> For all of you who do not read Arabic and who are woefully ignorant of >> Islamic society, the big issue which educated Muslim women are addressing >> is female circumcision which is the removal or mutilation of the >> clitoris. The issues which American feminists discuss seem quite trivial >> by comparison. >First, most rapes do not happen in public!! I did not read the alleged article >which claim that they did and I would like to know where it is, and even if >somebody did post such an article, such a claim is absolutely ridiculous. She is correct. I received a flaming letter which claimed the opposite. But someone else has replied to Miss Quigley's article and told her to remember the New Bedford rape trial. >Commiting rape in public is much more dangerous than in private and there is >no good reason that a rapist would do such a thing given a choice. Rapes in >occidental countries happen mainly between people who know each other, often >members of the same families. I know that the autor is going to accuse me of >all sorts of crimes against his country, but I see no reason to believe that >things would not be the same in muslim society, expecially given the tradition >of women being posessions of their husbands. The Muslim family is an extended family and the privacy which Miss Quigley considers helpful to commit rape usually does not exist. >We are aware that one of the most important issues in islamic society is >clitorectomies. It was one of the important issues in america too before >they were outlawed. Clitorectomies is a very touchy issue because it is one >such issue which is defended by the males of countries where those operations >are performed as "part of the culture", so any effort from outside the country >to change this can be denounced as "exterminationist rethoric". This is why >it is so good that women from within the countries are getting organised. I >was very surprised to see you bring up this point because I have the impression >that if I had brought it up I would have been accused of being one of those >"exterminationists". I believe the word is clitoridectomy and there are Muslim women who defend the operation. The person who carries out the operation is a woman. >Clitorectomies are one of the most pressing issues since they are a life and >death issue and a health issue. This does not mean that women in your countries >do not care about other issues, but rather that they've realised that they >must deal with the most threatening ones first. Don't hold your breath, after >they're finished with those, they will probably move on to the other "less >important" issues that we are concerned about here, like violence against >women, discrimination etc.. >I don't know what the point of bringing clitorectomy up in this conversation >was. If it was to tell us to get involved in it, then there is no need to do >so as there are occidental women concerned about the issue, but they are keeping >a low profile because they tend to do more harm than good as they are viewed >as threatening cultures and imposing their own on others. If it is to tell >us that your country's women are superior because their sufferings are greater, >I don't buy that and I am sure the women don't buy it either. This is an old >deviant paternalistic method for keeping women subjugated. Work on their >masochism and make them feel superior because they are suffering so much more, >and this way they will not want to give up the suffering because it will mean >that they are giving up this imagined superiority. Well, the women of lybia >who are fighting against clitorectomies are already making the statement, by >their fight, that they want no part in this fraudulous system of masochism >and superiority. >If finally you are trying to tell us that our concerns are not important, then >you are just plain wrong, or at least you are in our society because it is a >society where most individuals are concerned about such matters as rape even >if the society as a whole isn't. American feminism does suffer from a lot of superficial thinking. American feminists seem to have totally accepted careerism as self-fulfillment. The importance of careerism in American society is purely a result of the low-class bourgeois background of most of the people who immigrated to the United States. Upper class Europeans have never considered careerism an important value. The chief benficiaries of feminist acceptance of careerist values have been American businesses who have been able to lower real salaries because the size of the employee pool increased. > I am sure Lybian women would prefer not to >have to worry about clitorectomies and worry about rape instead (they would >probably prefer not to have to worry about either just like we would) and I >am sure that they will eventually start to worry about rape too. >I agree whole heartedly with you when you make the point that our western >society doesn't put enough emphasis on responsability. I do think however >that your society does not put enough emphasis on rights. I do not believe >that there can be a "just" society without an emphasis on both, so I don't think >that the muslim society is closer to being just than ours is because of this >lack of concern about rights. I am not sure exactly how you relate this >to the rape problem because as far as I know if you are against rape then it >is because you believe in a woman's right not be raped. You can try to make >sure they aren't by instilling a sence of responsability in men not to rape, >and also by instilling one in women in not putting themselves in a rape >situation by "tempting" the men. You can also try to do it by enforcing a >woman's right not to be raped. In my opinion, both approaches are needed if you >want to erradicate rape. >In our society, we have accepted a mode of dress which emphasises people's >sexuality much more than the one in your country does. I think that the >lesson that we need to learn is one of responsability: "look, but don't >touch". I meant more than just clothes. Traditional Muslim as well as traditional Jewish and most other traditional societies discourage the use of sexual cues outside of husband/wife relations. There was an earlier article by a woman who used flirting to control her engineers. She seems to have been degrading herself and might eventually find herself in a situation where one of her engineers understood her flirting as a desire for sexual intercourse. Islamic standards of dress and of behavior discourage such a situation from arising. > However since there are rapes happening in Lybia even if women are >not that interesting to look at when they are wearing clothes, it must be >that there is still something wrong there, so I suggest you start wondering >about your own society before you accuse ours of being the only one that's >sick. Considering what I have just learned about Muslim laws concerning >rape and sex, I am under the impression that there are not significantly >more rapes in America or Europe than in muslim countries, but significantly >more reported rapes because of our different sexual attitudes which makes >reporting rape less dangerous for our women than for your women. I have explained in a previous article why there is less rape in Islamic society. > Sophie Quigley > ...!{decvax,allegra}!watmath!saquigley -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (At the narrow passage, there is neither brother nor friend)
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (04/09/84)
-- Well, I've stayed away from this one as long as I could. Alas: >> Still, I should like to note that in a previous article Miss Quigley >> confused evidence rules of rape and adultery cases... Using the N. Y. Times style book, are we? How do you know she's not Mrs. Quigley? >> I believe the word is clitoridectomy and there are Muslim women who defend >> the operation. The person who carries out the operation is a woman. This is an argument? Read Solomon Asch on attitude compliance and of course, Mr. Martillo, Bruno Bettelheim on prisoner emulation of concentration camp guards. (He was there.) Why, even here in the US we have Phyllis Schafly. All oppressed minorities can find a few apologists for, if not active proponents of, the system. >> American feminists seem to have totally accepted careerism as >> self-fulfillment. The importance of careerism in American society is >> purely a result of the low-class bourgeois background of most of the >> people who immigrated to the United States. Upper class Europeans have >> never considered careerism an important value... For a guy who's so quick to get on Westerners' cases about their ignorance of North African culture because they weren't born there, Mr. M has a lot of chutzpah. What did the Uppah Claahss need careers for? Squander it as they might, their wealth, until into the 20th century, was so vast it was not necessary to work. Yes, a career is important when the alternative is starvation. Oh yes, it was during this century, during the world wars, that women were essentially drafted into the US labor force in large numbers. I guess you'd have to have studied some American history to know that. I submit, Mr. M., that you know very little about the determinants of American culture. But you will go far (as you certainly already have) on your colossal arrogance. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 08 Apr 84 [19 Germinal An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/09/84)
>Well, I've stayed away from this one as long as I could. Alas: >>> Still, I should like to note that in a previous article Miss Quigley >>> confused evidence rules of rape and adultery cases... >Using the N. Y. Times style book, are we? How do you know she's >not Mrs. Quigley? I do not know and I do not care. I do not like Ms. because I do not like mindlessly altering a language to fit the current intellectual fad. Language altering reminds me of 1984 and duck-speak. Desexing the language will hardly end sex descrimination. Japanese has no grammatical category for sex (no separate pronouns he,she or it). Yet, Japanese culture seems to be one of the least sexually egalitarian on the earth. >>> I believe the word is clitoridectomy and there are Muslim women who defend >>> the operation. The person who carries out the operation is a woman. >This is an argument? Read Solomon Asch on attitude compliance and >of course, Mr. Martillo, Bruno Bettelheim on prisoner emulation of >concentration camp guards. (He was there.) Why, even here in the US >we have Phyllis Schafly. All oppressed minorities can find a few >apologists for, if not active proponents of, the system. I was merely making an observation because Milady Quigley seemed to be implying the local women were all fighting clitoridectomy. I am not in favor of clitoridectomy. As a doctor, my grandfather at risk to his own life was fighting the practice of clitoridectomy 50 years ago in North Africa. >>> American feminists seem to have totally accepted careerism as >>> self-fulfillment. The importance of careerism in American society is >>> purely a result of the low-class bourgeois background of most of the >>> people who immigrated to the United States. Upper class Europeans have >>> never considered careerism an important value... >For a guy who's so quick to get on Westerners' cases about their >ignorance of North African culture because they weren't born there, >Mr. M has a lot of chutzpah. What did the Uppah Claahss need careers >for? Squander it as they might, their wealth, until into the 20th >century, was so vast it was not necessary to work. Yes, a career >is important when the alternative is starvation. Oh yes, it was >during this century, during the world wars, that women were essentially >drafted into the US labor force in large numbers. I guess you'd have to >have studied some American history to know that. Gainful employment and careerism are two very different categories of activity. Careerism is strictly a latter half of the 20th century phenomenon. Careerism has been a much less effective ideology in Europe and Japan specifically because there was an elite class who could demonstrate an alternate lifestyle. Paid employment is important when the only alternative is starvation. People verging on starvation do not worry about careers. >I submit, Mr. M., that you know very little about the determinants >of American culture. But you will go far (as you certainly already >have) on your colossal arrogance. I am not sure what in my reply to Milady Quigley's article "Rape in Lybia" merited this ad hominem attack but if I was arrogant towards her, I publicly apologize. Milady Quigley is one of the more outspoken contributors to this net group and would have informed me of any impropriety on my part. Mr. Perlow was presumptious to act on her behalf unless he is acting at her request. -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (At the narrow passage, there is neither brother nor friend)
notes@iuvax.UUCP (04/11/84)
#R:ihuxt:-39000:iuvax:9200011:000:1033
iuvax!dsaker Apr 10 11:47:00 1984
Reply to Martillo:
I just wanted to say that I am on your side. Your observations strike me
as quite accurate.
As an anecdotal aside on the clitoridectomy issue, back in Canberra,
Australia, a female doctor friend of mine was involved in the problem
of muslim immigrants continuing the practice of clitoridectomy on their
female offspring. This doctor told me that in her experience the women
muslims were the staunchest supporters of the practice. (Which is not to
say that all women supported it, just that more women seemed to support it
than did men, and that the women"s support seemed more vehement.)
One can excuse these women on the basis of the psychological pressures in
their environment, and one can similarly excuse the men who support the
practice. What I want to stress here is that the practice is perpetuated
not by "nasty men who get their kicks out of oppressing women", but by
a set of social pressures that mold the attitudes of both men and women.
Daryel Akerlind
...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsakermartillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) (04/14/84)
Sophie Quigley posted this article a few days ago. I have no intention of flaming because Miss Quigley clearly wants to argue with a committed Muslim who would defend Islamic society to the hilt. I am not a Muslim and my family belonged to the Jewish millet. Therefore, we have our own separate gripes against Muslims. Still, I should like to note that in a previous article Miss Quigley confused evidence rules of rape and adultery cases. The requirement of extremely strict proof in the case of adultery is one of the good features of Islamic law. In any case, the press is the last place to find good information on Islamic society. Most of the reporters seem brain-damaged on third world issues and either take ridiculously negative or ridiculously positive standpoints. V.S. Naipaul, who is a Carribean East Indian and who consequently lacks this silly first-world guilt from which Western reporters sometimes suffer, is supposed to be an excellent critic of the third-world although as a Hindu he may have some latent prejudice against Muslims. >Here are parts of a conversation on this rape in Lybia issue, I would like >to make a few comments at the end. Since most of the languages I speak do not have homonyms, I have been faulted several times for my usages. Still Miss Quigley could have checked to find the spelling "Libya." >>From martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) >> >Let me say that my comment about Libya, "male-dominated, repressive, >> >inhibitive society" *was* a culturally chauvinistic statement. However I do >> >feel the same way the Jim Dyer does when he states that our culture has been >> >much improved (I would say tremendously improved) due to the Women's Movement >> >and to all people re-examining roles and behaviors that have been taken for >> >granted for *too* long. We still have a long way to go. It is my hope that >> >ultimately we will have a world society where the rights and privileges of >> >all humans are equal and not based according to sex, race, religion, or any >> >other arbitrary criterion. >> >> This last statement is typical Western exterminationist rhetoric. I come >> from a culture which emphasizes duties and responsibilities above rights >> and privileges. Don't we have a right to exist in the future? The writer >> seems to advocate world cultural homogeneity, but cultural diversity is >> one of the nicer characteristics of this planet. >> >> The rapist's desire to victimize is more important than the woman's self >> image. >> >> > One other comment - it is very >> >difficult for "all the men to grab their weapons and hack the attacker to >> >pieces" if the rape does not occur in public. Most of them don't. >> >> I saw an article which detested my opinions and stated the exact opposite. >> >> For all of you who do not read Arabic and who are woefully ignorant of >> Islamic society, the big issue which educated Muslim women are addressing >> is female circumcision which is the removal or mutilation of the >> clitoris. The issues which American feminists discuss seem quite trivial >> by comparison. >First, most rapes do not happen in public!! I did not read the alleged article >which claim that they did and I would like to know where it is, and even if >somebody did post such an article, such a claim is absolutely ridiculous. She is correct. I received a flaming letter which claimed the opposite. But someone else has replied to Miss Quigley's article and told her to remember the New Bedford rape trial. >Commiting rape in public is much more dangerous than in private and there is >no good reason that a rapist would do such a thing given a choice. Rapes in >occidental countries happen mainly between people who know each other, often >members of the same families. I know that the autor is going to accuse me of >all sorts of crimes against his country, but I see no reason to believe that >things would not be the same in muslim society, expecially given the tradition >of women being posessions of their husbands. The Muslim family is an extended family and the privacy which Miss Quigley considers helpful to commit rape usually does not exist. >We are aware that one of the most important issues in islamic society is >clitorectomies. It was one of the important issues in america too before >they were outlawed. Clitorectomies is a very touchy issue because it is one >such issue which is defended by the males of countries where those operations >are performed as "part of the culture", so any effort from outside the country >to change this can be denounced as "exterminationist rethoric". This is why >it is so good that women from within the countries are getting organised. I >was very surprised to see you bring up this point because I have the impression >that if I had brought it up I would have been accused of being one of those >"exterminationists". I believe the word is clitoridectomy and there are Muslim women who defend the operation. The person who carries out the operation is a woman. >Clitorectomies are one of the most pressing issues since they are a life and >death issue and a health issue. This does not mean that women in your countries >do not care about other issues, but rather that they've realised that they >must deal with the most threatening ones first. Don't hold your breath, after >they're finished with those, they will probably move on to the other "less >important" issues that we are concerned about here, like violence against >women, discrimination etc.. >I don't know what the point of bringing clitorectomy up in this conversation >was. If it was to tell us to get involved in it, then there is no need to do >so as there are occidental women concerned about the issue, but they are keeping >a low profile because they tend to do more harm than good as they are viewed >as threatening cultures and imposing their own on others. If it is to tell >us that your country's women are superior because their sufferings are greater, >I don't buy that and I am sure the women don't buy it either. This is an old >deviant paternalistic method for keeping women subjugated. Work on their >masochism and make them feel superior because they are suffering so much more, >and this way they will not want to give up the suffering because it will mean >that they are giving up this imagined superiority. Well, the women of lybia >who are fighting against clitorectomies are already making the statement, by >their fight, that they want no part in this fraudulous system of masochism >and superiority. >If finally you are trying to tell us that our concerns are not important, then >you are just plain wrong, or at least you are in our society because it is a >society where most individuals are concerned about such matters as rape even >if the society as a whole isn't. American feminism does suffer from a lot of superficial thinking. American feminists seem to have totally accepted careerism as self-fulfillment. The importance of careerism in American society is purely a result of the low-class bourgeois background of most of the people who immigrated to the United States. Upper class Europeans have never considered careerism an important value. The chief benficiaries of feminist acceptance of careerist values have been American businesses who have been able to lower real salaries because the size of the employee pool increased. > I am sure Lybian women would prefer not to >have to worry about clitorectomies and worry about rape instead (they would >probably prefer not to have to worry about either just like we would) and I >am sure that they will eventually start to worry about rape too. >I agree whole heartedly with you when you make the point that our western >society doesn't put enough emphasis on responsability. I do think however >that your society does not put enough emphasis on rights. I do not believe >that there can be a "just" society without an emphasis on both, so I don't think >that the muslim society is closer to being just than ours is because of this >lack of concern about rights. I am not sure exactly how you relate this >to the rape problem because as far as I know if you are against rape then it >is because you believe in a woman's right not be raped. You can try to make >sure they aren't by instilling a sence of responsability in men not to rape, >and also by instilling one in women in not putting themselves in a rape >situation by "tempting" the men. You can also try to do it by enforcing a >woman's right not to be raped. In my opinion, both approaches are needed if you >want to erradicate rape. >In our society, we have accepted a mode of dress which emphasises people's >sexuality much more than the one in your country does. I think that the >lesson that we need to learn is one of responsability: "look, but don't >touch". I meant more than just clothes. Traditional Muslim as well as traditional Jewish and most other traditional societies discourage the use of sexual cues outside of husband/wife relations. There was an earlier article by a woman who used flirting to control her engineers. She seems to have been degrading herself and might eventually find herself in a situation where one of her engineers understood her flirting as a desire for sexual intercourse. Islamic standards of dress and of behavior discourage such a situation from arising. > However since there are rapes happening in Lybia even if women are >not that interesting to look at when they are wearing clothes, it must be >that there is still something wrong there, so I suggest you start wondering >about your own society before you accuse ours of being the only one that's >sick. Considering what I have just learned about Muslim laws concerning >rape and sex, I am under the impression that there are not significantly >more rapes in America or Europe than in muslim countries, but significantly >more reported rapes because of our different sexual attitudes which makes >reporting rape less dangerous for our women than for your women. I have explained in a previous article why there is less rape in Islamic society. > Sophie Quigley > ...!{decvax,allegra}!watmath!saquigley -- Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo (At the narrow passage, there is neither brother nor friend)
saquigley@watmath.UUCP (Sophie Quigley) (04/14/84)
"mylady" Quigley is not a lady, is certainly not yours and calls herself
and is usually called by other people Ms Quigley. Ms is an acceptable
address form for women in North America and is very useful because one
does not need to know the marital status of a woman to address her.
Sophie Quigley
...!{clyde,ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!watmath!saquigley